# TV Or Movie Characters Who Are Written To Be Virtuous But Are Really Jerks--Or Vice Versa **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556 "2017-08-13T17:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TRC4941](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trc4941/32/6792_2.png) [@TRC4941](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TRC4941)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/41 "2017-08-14T14:47:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Oh, Hawkeye was a jerk even when he was sober. But as my friend **longhair75** points out, that was more Alan Alda than the original conception of the character. Hawkeye was a skilled surgeon but he lacked all sorts of things in the “interpersonal” arena. Supposed to be the guy we are rooting for, but I usually walk away from the later seasons wishing he’d step on a land mine. Especially the episode where he’s trying to keep himself awake (hit his head I think) and he’s with a Korean family in their hut/house. He talks NON STOP through the whole episode. UGH! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/42 "2017-08-14T15:14:09Z")
> [@TRC4941](#): > > Especially the episode where he’s trying to keep himself awake (hit his head I think) and he’s with a Korean family in their hut/house. He talks NON STOP through the whole episode. UGH! He was in an automobile accident, I think. This is the episode that had the infamous capsule description in _ **TV Guide** _: “Hawkeye crashes his jeep and wakes up to find himself in a Korean.” And yeah, I can’t stand Alan Alda either. If I had to bunk with Hawkeye, I’d frag him by the end of the first week. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/43 "2017-08-14T15:44:56Z")
I always thought that Tim Taylor’s wife, Jill, on **Home Improvement** is the epitome of this. She’s meant to be the “One Sane Person” but she just comes across as a nagging, self centered shrew. Carmella Soprano falls into this, as well. Even though she was written to be much more complex than Jill, she was a hell of a lot less sympathetic to me than I think she was meant to be. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/44 "2017-08-14T15:54:38Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Disney has been or still is making a bunch of these shows for their network. Still are, and they all have the same dumb laugh track that they use indiscriminately. It’s like they brought in Data’s audience. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/45 "2017-08-14T15:56:52Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > He was in an automobile accident, I think. This is the episode that had the infamous capsule description in _ **TV Guide** _: “Hawkeye crashes his jeep and wakes up to find himself in a Korean.” > > And yeah, I can’t stand Alan Alda either. If I had to bunk with Hawkeye, I’d frag him by the end of the first week. Hey, Hunnicutt was no paragon of virtue, either, with his practical jokes and his smarmy family man demeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/46 "2017-08-14T16:17:23Z")
> [@golffan1963](#): > > First example is Benjamin Franklin “Hawkeye” Pierce. An obviously highly skilled surgeon whom we are supposed to like because he “cares”. In truth, Pierce is a sex-obsessed, womanizing alcoholic who gets so hung up on his self-righteousness that in one episode he takes the side of a enemy spy who tried to kill one of his patients. Not to mention he’s a slob. I usually enjoyed the show, but I didn’t like that they depicted Hawkeye that way. In his original form (the novel) he was married and fiercely loyal to his wife and family. Womanizing was a line he wouldn’t even approach, let alone cross. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/47 "2017-08-14T16:23:09Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > Carmella Soprano falls into this, as well. Even though she was written to be much more complex than Jill, she was a hell of a lot less sympathetic to me than I think she was meant to be. Nobody in “The Sopranos” is supposed to be sympathetic. OK, maybe Dr. Melfi? But all the mobsters and mob family people are monsters. David Chase never ever lost sight of that. Carmella doesn’t kill people directly, but she’s married to Tony, who is a murderous scumbag, and she knows exactly where the money for that fancy house comes from. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/48 "2017-08-14T17:03:05Z")
From the Vice Versa side, Arthur Fonzerelli was supposed to be the tough punk greaser biker guy who afforded Richie and friends a portal into the seedy side of Milwaukee. But instead turns out to be the ultimate Mr. Do Gooder in a leather jacket. The show I am referring to is _Happy Days_ for all you youngsters. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/49 "2017-08-14T17:41:16Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > Hey, Hunnicutt was no paragon of virtue, either, with his practical jokes and his smarmy family man demeanor. You left out his cheesy mustache. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/50 "2017-08-14T18:17:25Z")
^ Goes without saying. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/51 "2017-08-14T18:27:56Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > I always thought that Tim Taylor’s wife, Jill, on **Home Improvement** is the epitome of this. She’s meant to be the “One Sane Person” but she just comes across as a nagging, self centered shrew. I got the exact same vibe from Raymond’s wife Debra from Everyone loves Raymond. I get the sense I’m supposed to sympathize with her, and I really, really don’t. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/52 "2017-08-14T19:36:38Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > It amazes me that Jim Parsons can portray Sheldon Cooper as the jerk that he is and yet still make him loveable. I think he’s only lovable from the safe distance of an audience. If we were actually living in the BBT universe, our response to him might be Homicide. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/53 "2017-08-14T19:59:37Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I think he’s only lovable from the safe distance of an audience. If we were actually living in the BBT universe, our response to him might be Homicide. This is the same comment I’ve made about a lot of fictional characters. Og forbid we lived in a universe where the Marx brothers characters actually existed. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/54 "2017-08-14T20:09:42Z")
From the TV vaults: Taos NM Marshall Sam McCloud. He’s supposed to be a wise hayseed. A country bumpkin that teaches those city slickers a thing or two. Plus, he’s the lead. I assume we were supposed to like him. And I did, when the show was new. As a country bumpkin myself, I identified. But re watching them recently, I was stuck by what an asshole he was. He abused poor Broadhurst, connived and abused his friends. He’d tell you one thing, and turn around and do another. I can’t watch them any more. It’s not all Mystery Movies - McMillan and Banacek are still OK. In the same vein, Thomas Magnum really didn’t treat his friends very well. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/55 "2017-08-14T20:47:27Z")
Ooh - Spongebob Squarepants. We viewers are expected to see Spongebob as good-natured and fun (albeit socially clueless) and Squidward as mean and grouchy, but I don’t think it speaks ill of me that if I lived in that world, I’d totally be on Squidward’s side. Spongebob steps well over the line more often than not, and the fact that he maintains a friendship with Patrick, who has shown absolutely no redeeming qualities over the course of the series and joins/encourages him in his antagonism of Squidward, only adds to the argument that he’s a genuine jerk rather than a well-meaning dunce. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/56 "2017-08-14T21:08:55Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > It’s not all Mystery Movies - McMillan and Banacek are still OK. Where are you watching _Banacek_ these days? There are a few episodes I still haven’t seen. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Ooh - Spongebob Squarepants. We viewers are expected to see Spongebob as good-natured and fun (albeit socially clueless) and Squidward as mean and grouchy, but I don’t think it speaks ill of me that if I lived in that world, I’d totally be on Squidward’s side. Spongebob steps well over the line more often than not, and the fact that he maintains a friendship with Patrick, who has shown absolutely no redeeming qualities over the course of the series and joins/encourages him in his antagonism of Squidward, only adds to the argument that he’s a genuine jerk rather than a well-meaning dunce. I had a similar reaction to _Twelfth Night_. Toby and Andrew are drinking and carousing late into the night, so Malvolio tells them to be quiet, and they set out to fuck up his life in the most humiliating and degrading way possible, and Malvolio is the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/57 "2017-08-14T21:09:33Z")
Clark Kent in _Smallville_ definitely had his moments. Sure, most of the time he was being a good farmboy hero type, but then the lying started… He would lie to anybody at the drop of a hat, without even blinking an eye. For the other side of the coin, Lex Luthor called him on that once… caught him lying and said “How do you even _do_ that? If I could lie like that, I’d be… well, rich, I guess…” Lex was portrayed as being the obvious, eventual bad guy because we all know he ends up being the bad guy, but for the first few seasons he didn’t step out of line once and went way out of his way to be nice to everybody, spending hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to improve the lives of people in Smallville. Then, of course, he turned into the bad guy… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/58 "2017-08-14T21:28:26Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Where are you watching _Banacek_ these days? There are a few episodes I still haven’t seen. I got my DVDs when they came out originally, at normal “new release” prices. Wow! I see on Amazon that the prices have exploded into ridiculousville. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/59 "2017-08-14T21:39:19Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I got my DVDs when they came out originally, at normal “new release” prices. Wow! I see on Amazon that the prices have exploded into ridiculousville. Good grief, $380 for just the first season? There’s a complete _Perry Mason_, 72 disks for only $112. Wait, my mistake. That’s for both seasons, all 16 episodes. Still seems a bit pricey. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/60 "2017-08-14T21:44:25Z")
The Tenth Doctor treated Martha and Jack like crap. I like him a lot less than I did when I first watched his seasons. What I used to see as charm comes off as manipulative smarminess, once you start seeing it that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556.md?page=4)