# TV Or Movie Characters Who Are Written To Be Virtuous But Are Really Jerks--Or Vice Versa **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556 "2017-08-13T17:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RunSilent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e0b2c6/32.png) [@RunSilent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RunSilent)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/81 "2017-08-15T14:15:13Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Ooh - Spongebob Squarepants. We viewers are expected to see Spongebob as good-natured and fun (albeit socially clueless) and Squidward as mean and grouchy, but I don’t think it speaks ill of me that if I lived in that world, I’d totally be on Squidward’s side. Spongebob steps well over the line more often than not, and the fact that he maintains a friendship with Patrick, who has shown absolutely no redeeming qualities over the course of the series and joins/encourages him in his antagonism of Squidward, only adds to the argument that he’s a genuine jerk rather than a well-meaning dunce. I love the show and am a big Squidward fan… glad to see that another adult appreciates that the show is over the heads of children… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/82 "2017-08-15T15:04:00Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I think that one has more to do with the show getting dated than the creators missing their mark - domestic violence is considered a very serious issue today, but at the time of the show it was a minor thing suitable for light jokes. Audiences at the time generally didn’t see it as a big deal, very unlike today. I think ‘characters that seem like jerks today but weren’t seen that way at the time’ could be an interesting thread too. I’d add, and I don’t think I’m being an apologist, that Ralph would never hit Alice. It was all bluster and they both knew it. He needed to win the argument, so threatening to send her to the moon was his way of getting the last word. He loved her dearly. Now, threatening violence is also spouse abuse, and I’m not diminishing that. But Alice wasn’t threatened. This was the 50s - if he got too out of hand, she’s just him him over the head with a cast iron frying pan, or a rolling pin. :eek:🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/83 "2017-08-15T15:31:21Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He loved her dearly. “Baby, you’re the greatest!” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/84 "2017-08-15T17:42:28Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’d add, and I don’t think I’m being an apologist, that Ralph would never hit Alice. It was all bluster and they both knew it. The audience knew it as well, which is why they never found it offensive. To this day, I still don’t. I grew up in a truly abusive household, and I know the difference between everyday bluster and real domestic violence. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/85 "2017-08-15T18:48:23Z")
> [@golffan1963](#): > > Any thoughts? My prime examples both come from the TV show M_A_S\*H (yes, I’m dating myself). > > First example is Benjamin Franklin “Hawkeye” Pierce. An obviously highly skilled surgeon whom we are supposed to like because he “cares”. In truth, Pierce is a sex-obsessed, womanizing alcoholic who gets so hung up on his self-righteousness that in one episode he takes the side of a enemy spy who tried to kill one of his patients. Not to mention he’s a slob. Pierce was called out on it at least twice - once when he tried to make a pass at a visiting Swedish (I think) doctor, and another when he used a bottle of vintage wine to, er, “date” one of the nurses. The only reason he wasn’t serving time in Leavenworth was because he was such a skilled surgeon that nobody dared say anything. (Then again, the only reason he wasn’t promoted to major was because of his shenanigans.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/86 "2017-08-15T19:08:36Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’d add, and I don’t think I’m being an apologist, that Ralph would never hit Alice. It was all bluster and they both knew it. He needed to win the argument, so threatening to send her to the moon was his way of getting the last word. He loved her dearly. > > Now, threatening violence is also spouse abuse, and I’m not diminishing that. But Alice wasn’t threatened. This was the 50s - if he got too out of hand, she’s just him him over the head with a cast iron frying pan, or a rolling pin. :eek:🙂 Right. Whenever Ralph would say something like that, Alice would just roll her eyes or say “Har-de-har-har!” And she was verbally abusive toward him, [constantly making fun of his weight or insulting his intelligence.](http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0023293/quotes) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/87 "2017-08-15T19:21:19Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > And she was verbally abusive toward him, [constantly making fun of his weight or insulting his intelligence.](http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0023293/quotes) Kramden was not the sharpest stick in the pile. I would venture to say that he was friends with Norton to make him appear to be intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/88 "2017-08-15T19:28:28Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > He supports Belle Watling and her “girls,” admitting to “setting her up in business.” He admits to killing two people (a Negro who was “uppity to a white woman” and a Yankee in a bar fight.) He’s also amazingly hypocritical, helping Scarlett step outside the rules of society and then criticizing her for not following those rules and becoming Mr. Confederate flag himself. But Rhett isn’t supposed to be a virtuous paragon. He’s an out-and-out scoundrel, and the only reason he likes Scarlett is because he knows she’s a scoundrel too. Everybody else can’t see what a poisonous viper Scarlett is, except him, but he admires her for it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/89 "2017-08-15T19:35:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Kramden was not the sharpest stick in the pile. I would venture to say that he was friends with Norton to make him appear to be intelligent. Norton _sounded_ and acted stupid, but was really much more knowledgeable and competent than Ralph was. His apartment was much better furnished (although that was because he bought things on credit). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/90 "2017-08-15T19:36:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But Rhett isn’t supposed to be a virtuous paragon. He’s an out-and-out scoundrel, and the only reason he likes Scarlett is because he knows she’s a scoundrel too. Everybody else can’t see what a poisonous viper Scarlett is, except him, but he admires her for it. I don’t recall the murders from either format, but it has been a long time since I read the novel or watched the film. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/91 "2017-08-15T19:57:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Norton _sounded_ and acted stupid, but was really much more knowledgeable and competent than Ralph was. His apartment was much better furnished (although that was because he bought things on credit). He watched Captain Video. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/92 "2017-08-16T01:47:24Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > a visiting Swedish (I think) doctor Mariette Hartley, mmmmmmmmmmm! :o ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/93 "2017-08-16T01:57:03Z")
David White, who played Larry Tate on _Bewitched_, on _Have Gun Will Travel,_ playing an asshole friend of Paladin, who, of course, Paladin kills. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/94 "2017-08-16T02:01:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Ralph Cramden (Jackie Gleason) on the Honeymooners wasn’t meant to be exactly virtuous. He was kind of selfish - always scheming to put one over on his wife - but it was basically harmless stuff like wanting to go to a lodge meeting instead of visiting his mother in law. He was meant to be a basically decent but flawed guy. Except that at the end of every episode he threatened to hit his wife. Actually at the end of every episode he would hug Alice and say “Baby, you’re the greatest”. Now if you want to say sensibilities are different now over husbands threatening wives, fine. But clearly ever time Ralph does, Alice stands there with her arms folded, knowing he is full of hot air. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/95 "2017-08-16T02:58:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He watched Captain Video. :dubious: Proves my point.😃 The Nortons had a TV, when the Kramdens didn’t. IIRC, they had a refrigerator when the Kramdens had an old-fashioned ice box. They had curtains on the window while the Kramdens’ bare window looked straight onto the fire escape. The Nortons had floral wallpaper instead of bare walls. And Ed was a man of the world compared to Ralph. Trixie was originally supposedly a former stripper/“burlesque artist” but was soon retconned into an ordinary housewife. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/96 "2017-08-16T03:22:49Z")
The main characters from _Rent._ A bunch of young little shits who believe they shouldn’t have to pay rent because they’re “artist” and can’t sell out to the man. There’s one scene where we hear one of the character’s mother on the answering machine telling him how much she loves him and wants to talk to him. The character then says something like “Every time I think of leaving New York I think of my parents and it keeps me here.” I wanted to throttle the lot of them. Get off my lawn! ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/97 "2017-08-16T14:21:49Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Delenn in Babylon 5 came off as someone who was supposed to be very sweet and virtuous, tough on her enemies but kind to her friends. But I always saw her as very manipulative and self-serving in her personal relationships, and I really got the vibe that she wasn’t nearly as good for Sheridan as we were supposed to see. I can’t point to exact examples (it’s been 15 years since I watched the show last), but I remember being really put off by her near-deification. > . Let us not forget, when Dukhat died in a space battle with an Earth Force ship, she called for a Holy War of Extinction against the Human Race. Captain Ben Sisko spearheaded a security program making family members of key Federation personnel prove they weren’t shapeshifting Founders by submitting to spot checks of blood tests on demand…and was willing to arrest his own father when he balked at the intrusion. He was obsessed with bringing Maquis leader Eddington to justice and poisoned a planet full of refugees just to flush him out. Finally, In order to trick the Romulans into joining the Dominion War, he entered into a conspiracy which includes murdering a counterfeiter to silence him, Destroying a ship and crew of a Romulan Diplomatic envoy…including a Senator. Violating the Prime Directive. Sisko loves the United Federation of Planets, and will justify the means when he feels he needs to. _Other people get in the way, and sacrifices must be imposed._ ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/98 "2017-08-16T15:18:15Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Let us not forget, when Dukhat died in a space battle with an Earth Force ship, she called for a Holy War of Extinction against the Human Race. In fairness, she was upset and said ‘kill them all’ in the heat of the moment, she didn’t actually sit back and calmly decide on that course of action or work convince the council to start a war. I blame that one on the Minbari’s insane government setup, where an angry utterance from a person who’s clearly not thinking rationally becomes an irrevocable decision to start a long war of extermination. You’d think they’d insist on meditating before making the ‘no backsies’ genocide decision, considering how spiritual they are. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/99 "2017-08-16T18:20:36Z")
Well, Sherlock is written to be “on the side of the angels” and is always seen to be rescuing people, but he’s still a major dick. To John, to Molly, to Greg, to his clients, and even sometimes to Mrs. Hudson. He tries to be a dick to Mycroft, but Mycroft can out-dick him. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556/100 "2017-08-16T22:19:02Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > golffan1963: > What bugs me about the “good guys” in MASH (and conversely, the cartoonishly imbecilic portrayal of Frank Burns and random “regular army” folks) is that there seems to be no one capable of articulating why American soldiers were fighting in Korea. […] But the producers had a Vietnam-era anti-war agenda to push, and darned if historical facts were going to get in the way. “Korean”? The peasants dressed as Vietnamese, the officer background stories placed them in Vietnam era, and they were using Bell Huey helicopters! The question is why did they place the Vietnam war in Korea? I assume (I don’t know the answer), that they just copied the name of the country from an original book? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-or-movie-characters-who-are-written-to-be-virtuous-but-are-really-jerks-or-vice-versa/793556.md?page=6)