# TV Tropes is in trouble **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 31, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943 "2010-10-31T01:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/101 "2010-11-02T13:49:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I made this thread for the people who care about the site. If you think it’s no big deal, why come into the thread at all? This needs to be repeated, partially because it torpedoes your argument in a very specific way. A lot of people care about TV Tropes. It’s one of those sites that just builds up that kind of fervor in people. And if they wanted to, the TV Tropes staff could use that to make 10x the money with Amazon Affiliate links than they could with Google AdSense. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/102 "2010-11-02T14:06:01Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > This needs to be repeated, partially because it torpedoes your argument in a very specific way. A lot of people care about TV Tropes. It’s one of those sites that just builds up that kind of fervor in people. And if they wanted to, the TV Tropes staff could use that to make 10x the money with Amazon Affiliate links than they could with Google AdSense. Nice idea. You just get done reading the trope page for Kick-Ass, and oh hey lookie there, it’s a link to Amazon to buy the DVD! ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/103 "2010-11-02T14:24:49Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > This needs to be repeated, partially because it torpedoes your argument in a very specific way. A lot of people care about TV Tropes. It’s one of those sites that just builds up that kind of fervor in people. And if they wanted to, the TV Tropes staff could use that to make 10x the money with Amazon Affiliate links than they could with Google AdSense. I’m really interested in knowing more - I’m not saying you are wrong or right, or arguing… can you link to some cites that compare the two? The only experience I have had with Amazon Affiliate links, the site got a few hundred dollars a year from it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/104 "2010-11-02T14:38:03Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > I’m really interested in knowing more - I’m not saying you are wrong or right, or arguing… can you link to some cites that compare the two? I’ve never looked for a comparison between the two, but look at the Amazon Affiliates fee structure: > **[Amazon.com Associates Central - Help](https://affiliate-program.amazon.com/help/node/topic/G9LSJ3UCEQWZ4DTJ)** 4% is a pretty generous percentage and it only takes seven sales a month to bump it up to 6%. TV Tropes is ranked in the 3,000s on Alexa. While the Alexa rating is not perfect, that means they get a ton of traffic every month. Turning even a few of those users into Amazon buyers from the TV Tropes page can result in hundreds of dollars in advertising fees. If those users buy something ridiculous (like a treadmill or something), they can be set for a year. And TV Tropes has a dedicated enough fanbase that they could easily swing this in lieu of a donation button. Especially if they tie it into a daily “featured trope” or even an editorial about “TV Tropes’ staff favorite movies” or something. Basically, what I’m saying is, while it’d be more difficult, life after Google AdSense could bring in just as much money, if not more. But Google AdSense is easy, so I understand the frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/105 "2010-11-02T14:43:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I made this thread for the people who care about the site. If you think it’s no big deal, why come into the thread at all? I _do_ care about TV Tropes. I read it all the time. At the same time, I don’t think that Google’s policies or intent or actions are unreasonable, or illegal, and they don’t amount to censorship. When the SDMB hit the rocks, I happily became a paid subscriber, because it offered content that I valued. I have remained a paid subscriber, even though it’s not longer mandatory, because it’s wrong to make other people responsible for paying for _my_ enjoyment of content. I contribute to support my favourite public radio program for the same reason. Wikipedia routinely solicits contributions and dispenses with advertisng altogether. If TV Tropes were not to qualify for Google Adsense, then it would be the rightful responsibility of those enjoying the content to contribute to keep it going. If it were to go away, the sole responsibility would be on those who failed to pay for what they wanted to enjoy. Google has absolutely no responsibility, moral or otherwise, to pay for content that the people who are enjoying the content have no interest in paying for, especially if that content is of the kind that does not please its advertisers. Content is not free, nor should it be. ---
**Author:** ![Archeonomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Archeonomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archeonomist)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/106 "2010-11-02T15:58:33Z")
Argh - I actually posted that drivel to this thread? Well - don’t drink and post, obviously. I’ll go someplace and hide. Carry on ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/107 "2010-11-02T16:01:14Z")
Very well said, **acsenray**. 100% agreement. I could have said the exact same thing if I were as nice as you. I asked earlier and I will ask again. “How many of you who regularly read TVTropes have contributed to the site?” Only one guy in this thread has actually stepped up as far as I know. If you love it so much, pay for it. The world doesn’t exist to serve you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/108 "2010-11-03T09:59:49Z")
Is it just me, or did the site lose its search function ? ETA: you can still find a search engine in the Tools thingy on the left side of the page, but there’s no search field on every page anymore ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/109 "2010-11-03T12:12:50Z")
That was a Google search. I wonder why it’s not there. And I give up on people recognizing that pulling this shit is wrong. It’s like you guys have gotten this mindset that it’s okay to do whatever you want if you have money. It’s not. I have always been for basic human decency in businesses. What you or I would do for each other, I expect businesses to do for one another. If a mod here just popped up and banned me, didn’t tell me why or give me any warning, I would feel wronged, and I’m pretty sure half the Dope would think it wrong, too. Google does it to TVTropes, and it’s just business. Bull. If it is immoral for individuals to do to each other, then it’s immoral for one business to do for another. All they had to do to be moral was not give it away for free, but actually be decent in warning people, and not use what I consider a very bad business practice: continually giving them better and better deals, thus giving them tacit permission for their content, and then suddenly, when they are counting on that money coming in, and it’s impossible for them to negotiate similar rates, pull the rug out from under them, so they have to stay with you, and you can do whatever you want. That’s why I say Google is evil. All it would take is an email from the same person who personally reviewed the site saying “Hey, you failed our most recent test. Here’s what you did wrong. Fix it, or in 30 days, you will have no more ads.” That would be not evil. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/110 "2010-11-03T12:18:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If a mod here just popped up and banned me, didn’t tell me why or give me any warning, I would feel wronged, and I’m pretty sure half the Dope would think it wrong, too. Google does it to TVTropes, and it’s just business. Bull. If it is immoral for individuals to do to each other, then it’s immoral for one business to do for another. Google did no such thing. Their rules for AdSense are very clearly spelled out and TV Tropes’ sex pages break a ton of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/111 "2010-11-03T12:41:23Z")
TV Tropes has sex pages ?! Goddammit. Better back it up before it goes offline. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/112 "2010-11-03T12:48:47Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I _do_ care about TV Tropes. I read it all the time. At the same time, I don’t think that Google’s policies or intent or actions are unreasonable, or illegal, and they don’t amount to censorship. > > When the SDMB hit the rocks, I happily became a paid subscriber, because it offered content that I valued. I have remained a paid subscriber, even though it’s not longer mandatory, because it’s wrong to make other people responsible for paying for _my_ enjoyment of content. I contribute to support my favourite public radio program for the same reason. Wikipedia routinely solicits contributions and dispenses with advertisng altogether. > > If TV Tropes were not to qualify for Google Adsense, then it would be the rightful responsibility of those enjoying the content to contribute to keep it going. If it were to go away, the sole responsibility would be on those who failed to pay for what they wanted to enjoy. Google has absolutely no responsibility, moral or otherwise, to pay for content that the people who are enjoying the content have no interest in paying for, especially if that content is of the kind that does not please its advertisers. > > Content is not free, nor should it be. If you like the site, then where’s your money? According to you, if you like a site, you have to pay for it. I bet there are 100s of websites you visit that you don’t pay for. I seriously doubt you click on every ad and buy stuff, so no money comes out of your pocket. Face it, most of the content on the Internet is free. Heck, TVTropes is under the Creative Commons license. The guy running the site doesn’t even own the content. It’s free in pretty much every sense possible. It may go past you, but not all people see capitalism as an inherent good. I personally see it as a necessary evil, as we’ve tried more moral systems, but they won’t work with significant numbers of immoral people. We have to use the shiny to bait those people. So you try to say that a company is just doing what capitalism demands. And I say that is putting money in front of being a decent human being, and thus evil. I’m not going to blame TVTropes when they were acting in good faith, doing a lot of things not to piss off the advertisers, and then they got the rug pulled out from other them without any warning. I will blame Google, because, by any reasonable standard of human decency, you do not just suddenly put someone else in a monetary bind when you have the ability not to. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/113 "2010-11-03T12:52:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > TV Tropes has sex pages ?! > > Goddammit. Better back it up before it goes offline. Don’t. They have pages discussing tropes in porn, and a forum topic that discusses sexuality. Nothing that we don’t have here. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/114 "2010-11-03T12:58:02Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Google did no such thing. Their rules for AdSense are very clearly spelled out and TV Tropes’ sex pages break a ton of them. And we have the rules already posted here. But the mods still have to tell us which rule has been broken. You don’t get to just put up a list and then just go to town. That would be being a jerk. It’s all in the not contacting them or giving them a chance to fix it before punishing. There’s a reason we have Mod notes and warnings here–that inspires a sense of actual fairness. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/115 "2010-11-03T13:01:18Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’ve never looked for a comparison between the two, but look at the Amazon Affiliates fee structure: > > [Amazon.com Associates Central - Help](https://affiliate-program.amazon.com/gp/associates/help/t2/a15?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_t=501&ref_=amb_link_160256_2&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=&pf_rd_s=assoc-center-2&pf_rd_r=&pf_rd_i=assoc_help_t2_a1) > > 4% is a pretty generous percentage and it only takes seven sales a month to bump it up to 6%. TV Tropes is ranked in the 3,000s on Alexa. While the Alexa rating is not perfect, that means they get a ton of traffic every month. Turning even a few of those users into Amazon buyers from the TV Tropes page can result in hundreds of dollars in advertising fees. If those users buy something ridiculous (like a treadmill or something), they can be set for a year. > > And TV Tropes has a dedicated enough fanbase that they could easily swing this in lieu of a donation button. Especially if they tie it into a daily “featured trope” or even an editorial about “TV Tropes’ staff favorite movies” or something. > > Basically, what I’m saying is, while it’d be more difficult, life after Google AdSense could bring in just as much money, if not more. But Google AdSense is easy, so I understand the frustration. You have to have money in the interim to pull that off. The site itself can’t go down. Guess what–they’re already looking into doing everything ytou said. But they first have to acquiesce to Google, or we lose most of the site. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/116 "2010-11-03T13:14:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If this really is the case, then I agree, it’s pretty poor. Have we actually established that the rules really _are_ being enforced unevenly? > It’s easy to have an impression of the general level of profanity on this site vs that, but that impression could be wrong. > Do we know how it’s measured, and whether the other sites that seem to be getting away with it aren’t just below the radar? No. we don’t. Because they won’t even tell the people whose funding they just pulled what they did wrong. I only have my own impressions, and I’ve been there enough to know that this site, at the very least, has just as much sexual content. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure that’s what I meant by ‘them’s the breaks’ I have a website of my own and I use AdSense on it. I am acutely aware of the requirements imposed by the scheme - it just seems odd to me that people can be surprised when they fall foul of the policies, which regardless of whether they’re draconian, are abundantly clear. It’s easy. When they increasingly give you better deals, you think you must be compliant, or they wouldn’t. It’s not like we know what’s on every single page on the website. It’s user generated content. That’s where their rules become stupid, too. They expect user-generated sites to be at the same level as regular sites. You have to control it completely. > [@](#): > > Because this is a message board, where people discuss their diverse viewpoints. My viewpoint is based on first-hand experience of Google Adsense, and my experience happens to have been entirely positive. I think this thread needs the balance, frankly. And that would be fine, if this thread were about whether Google was right or not. There was no balance to be achieved, since all that was said before you posted was that the site was in trouble, and that some people didn’t like it or wanted to help It didn’t become a thread about whether Google was right or wrong until you posted. And I still say that they were wrong. Not for enforcing their (stupid) policy, but the way they went about it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/117 "2010-11-03T13:34:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You have to have money in the interim to pull that off. The site itself can’t go down. Guess what–they’re already looking into doing everything ytou said. But they first have to acquiesce to Google, or we lose most of the site. Maybe this is a bit jerkish of me, but I don’t completely believe that they only have enough money to run through the end of the month. For one, Google pays out about a month behind. Since “The Incident” happened in the last few days of October, TV Tropes is still looking at a big fat check at the end of November. Secondly, server bills don’t normally come every month. Most hosting companies require a once-a-year or twice-a-year payment. If TV Tropes is on a monthly billing cycle, their bill for November won’t be very big (all things considered) and could easily be covered by the staff. Especially for a text-based site like TV Tropes. Finally, why would they “shut down the site”? It’s trivial to strip out all the images, run lean for a month or two, and restore that functionality when the site returns to profitability. And per their own assessment of “The Situation”, that’s exactly what would happen: [QUOTE=TV Tropes] **How dire is the situation, really? Is TV Tropes going to have to shut down or cut way back?** We have an operating-fund buffer that’s good for about a month. If we haven’t found a satisfactory solution by then, we’ll have to cut back on the parts that are fun but not essential to the wiki’s central mission of cataloging tropes. [/QUOTE] That’s not “most” of the site. In short, you need to get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/118 "2010-11-03T13:49:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So you try to say that a company is just doing what capitalism demands. And I say that is putting money in front of being a decent human being, and thus evil. I’m not going to blame TVTropes when they were acting in good faith, doing a lot of things not to piss off the advertisers, and then they got the rug pulled out from other them without any warning. I will blame Google, because, by any reasonable standard of human decency, you do not just suddenly put someone else in a monetary bind when you have the ability not to. By every description of what occurred so far, TVtropes _was not_ acting in good faith. They signed up with Google to get ad revenue, knowing full well what Google’s policies about content were. They did not abide by those policies. They seem to have been relying on the “everyone else is doing it” excuse. But they were not abiding by Google’s policies… they were just accepting Google’s money _despite_ not abiding by Google’s policies. That is bad faith. I, too, find it difficult to work up much sympathy for TVtropes having had a crappy business plan that wasn’t supportable unless they obeyed Google’s restrictions – but decided they could get away with ignoring Google’s restrictions. If they can’t control their content to Google’s specs, then they should not have relied on Google’s money for their business. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/119 "2010-11-03T15:54:25Z")
**BigT** , how much money have you donated to your beloved TVTropes? As you can see, I am a Charter Member here and have given money to the SDMB annually for more than a few years so far. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943/120 "2010-11-03T20:23:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No. we don’t. Because they won’t even tell the people whose funding they just pulled what they did wrong. I only have my own impressions, and I’ve been there enough to know that this site, at the very least, has just as much sexual content. I’m happy to take your word for that. So maybe the SDMB could find itself in similar jeopardy at any moment. > [@](#): > > It’s easy. When they increasingly give you better deals, you think you must be compliant, or they wouldn’t. It’s not like we know what’s on every single page on the website. It’s user generated content. That’s where their rules become stupid, too. They expect user-generated sites to be at the same level as regular sites. You have to control it completely. Maybe I’m completely misunderstanding you, but it kind of sounds, from this and other comments, that you might be thinking Google purposely built them up only to smash them down. There’s no reason why they would want to do that and plenty of reasons why they wouldn’t. A site that is getting good ad revenue from Google is good for Google too - there’s certainly no incentive for them to try to stop dealing with the sites they happen to be paying a lot of money. > [@](#): > > And that would be fine, if this thread were about whether Google was right or not. There was no balance to be achieved, since all that was said before you posted was that the site was in trouble, and that some people didn’t like it or wanted to help It didn’t become a thread about whether Google was right or wrong until you posted. You’re not entirely right about all of this. There is a counterpoint to your views, regardless whether you want to hear it. It’s a bit odd that you want to control the discussion that way in a thread where you’re complaining about Google exerting control. Sauce for the goose. > [@](#): > > And I still say that they were wrong. Not for enforcing their (stupid) policy, but the way they went about it. Maybe so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tv-tropes-is-in-trouble/558943.md?page=7)