# TVAA-you don't know jackshit about mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116 "2003-10-17T23:45:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/241 "2003-10-31T12:56:24Z")
Vorlon, why can’t you just be nice? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/242 "2003-10-31T13:01:08Z")
Toleration of ignorance is a virtue. Toleration of willful ignorance is not. Toleration of the willful ignorance of incompetence is a disgrace. **Zoe** helped start the rain of insults and abuse… _I_ will finish it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/243 "2003-10-31T13:04:59Z")
Okay, then. Why can’t you just not be a jackass? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/244 "2003-10-31T13:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\* Toleration of the willful ignorance of incompetence is a disgrace. > > . \*\* And we define willfull ignorance as ‘disagreeing with TVAA’? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/245 "2003-10-31T13:14:09Z")
No, we define willful ignorance as “repeating inaccurate and incorrect information even after appropriate sources of correct information have been provided”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/246 "2003-10-31T13:17:05Z")
That definition makes you the champ. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/247 "2003-10-31T13:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*No, we define willful ignorance as “repeating inaccurate and incorrect information even after _appropriate sources of correct information have been provided_”. \*\* Only that that the only source you provide for the accurate information is your own opinion. I searched thefirst few pages of the GD thread and you offer no cites to back up your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/248 "2003-10-31T14:02:17Z")
I don’t know that he’s ever offered a cite to back up _any_ argument. In fact, he always dismisses my cites, including those from Stanford University. And then he whines about appeals to authority. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/249 "2003-10-31T15:02:32Z")
The causes of depression are complex and the appropriate treatment varies from patient to patient and is best determined by a physician. > [@](#): > > **TVAA** : You even suggest that depression is related to low levels of serotonin Wrong again, Sherlock. Depression is sometimes caused by an imbalance in serotonin levels. I didn’t say whether they were low levels or high levels. Speaking of “appropriate sources of correct information,” this source is one that you have referred to yourself and is certainly reputable – The National Institute of Mental Health. They bill themselves as “the world’s leading mental health **biomedical** organization” – and indicate that they “conduct and support research on the causes, diagnosis, prevention, and treatment of depression.” (bolding added.) [http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depresfact.cfm](http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depresfact.cfm) Here are some excerpts: > [@](#): > > Evidence from neuroscience, genetics, and clinical investigation demonstrate that depression is a disorder of the brain. **Modern brain imaging technologies are revealing that in depression, neural circuits responsible for the regulation of moods, thinking, sleep, appetite, and behavior fail to function properly, and that critical neurotransmitters – chemicals used by nerve cells to communicate – are out of balance.** Genetics research indicates that vulnerability to depression results from the influence of multiple genes acting together with environmental factors. Studies of brain chemistry and of mechanisms of action of antidepressant medications continue to inform the development of new and better treatments. > In the past decade, there have been significant advances in our ability to investigate brain function at multiple levels. NIMH is collaborating with various scientific disciplines to effectively utilize the tools of molecular and cellular biology, genetics, epidemiology, and cognitive and behavioral science to gain a more thorough and comprehensive understanding of the factors that influence brain function and behavior, including mental illness. > > **In the past decade, there have been significant advances in our ability to investigate brain function at multiple levels.** NIMH is collaborating with various scientific disciplines to effectively utilize the tools of molecular and cellular biology, genetics, epidemiology, and cognitive and behavioral science to gain a more thorough and comprehensive understanding of the factors that influence brain function and behavior, including mental illness. (That’s why those old textbooks are so limiting.) And from this reference, also from the National Institute of Mental Health: > [@](#): > > There are several types of antidepressant medications used to treat depressive disorders. **These include newer medications-chiefly the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs)**-the tricyclics, and the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The SSRIs-and other newer medications that affect neurotransmitters such as dopamine or norepinephrine-generally have fewer side effects than tricyclics. And finally, I ran across this on the same page. I contradicts something that you had mentioned before: > [@](#): > > Antidepressant drugs are not habit-forming. You do have to be under supervision when you stop taking anti-depressants. Although they are not addictive, stopping them suddenly can cause other problems. I do feel that it is fair to make one observation. **My** therapy seems to be working. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/250 "2003-10-31T19:59:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*The causes of depression are complex and the appropriate treatment varies from patient to patient and is best determined by a physician. \*\* Who will probably determine the appropriate treatment through trial and error… > [@](#): > > \*\*Wrong again, Sherlock. Depression is sometimes caused by an imbalance in serotonin levels. I didn’t say whether they were low levels or high levels. \*\* Even you aren’t stupid enough to suggest that depression can be caused by _excessive_ serotonin, and the suggestion that lowered levels of serotonin can cause depression has been experimentally disproven. Those pages – written for the general public, which is (as you’ve amply demonstrated) almost completely ignorant about neurobiological research – are oversimplified at best and grossly inaccurate at worst. Phrases like “out of balance” don’t signify anything of importance – we already know that absolute levels of neurotransmitters aren’t meaningful. The claims that neurotransmitter deficiencies are somehow responsible for depression and other psychiatric disorders predate modern imaging methods, sister, as is the proof that model is inadequate to explain them. All those methods have shown is that areas of the brain known to be associated with certain functions show atypical patterns of activation in individuals whose function is atypical. Big surprise. What exactly do you think repeating the full name for the SSRI acronym does for your position? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*And finally, I ran across this on the same page. I contradicts something that you had mentioned before: \*\* I don’t recall saying that antidepressants are addictive – in fact, I recall saying the exact opposite. However, they are tolerance-inducing, which means that a person who takes them long enough will experience a rebound effect if they stop “suddenly” – which in the case of most antidepressants is any period of time shorter than several weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/251 "2003-10-31T21:35:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _ **We define willful ignorance as "repeating inaccurate and incorrect information even after appropriate sources of correct information have been provided."** _ ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/252 "2003-10-31T21:39:26Z")
What you know about psychiatry would fill a Klein bottle. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/253 "2003-11-01T16:14:15Z")
Since the inside and the outside of a Klein bottle are the same, it follows that what I know about psychiatry would fill most of a universe. Which isn’t true, but thanks for the compliment anyway. I suspect you know almost as much about psychiatry as you know about hyperdimensional topology. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/254 "2003-11-01T18:50:44Z")
Has this reached “do not feed the trolls” status yet? Just checking. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/255 "2003-11-01T20:05:54Z")
Eh. I think I’ll stop responding soon, even if **Zoe** comes back with more of her “evidence”. :rolleyes: It’s just not worth the effort anymore. My point’s been made. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/256 "2003-11-01T20:11:46Z")
Eh. I think I’ll stop responding soon, even if **Zoe** comes back with more of her “evidence”. :rolleyes: It’s just not worth the effort anymore. My point’s been made. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/257 "2003-11-01T20:12:49Z")
Ack! Triply-accursed hamsters! Well, that _definitely_ makes my point, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/258 "2003-11-01T20:17:58Z")
I would just like to say that I have not seen **one single cite** from **TVAA** proving **anything** about anything anyone has said, especially himself. On the other hand, I _have_ seen **TVAA** ridicule others’ cites. Hmmm… > [@](#): > > My point’s been made. What point? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/259 "2003-11-01T20:22:15Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Zoe The causes of depression are complex and the appropriate treatment varies from patient to patient and is best determined by a physician. > > Who will probably determine the appropriate treatment through trial and error… Cite? > [@](#): > > Even you aren’t stupid enough to suggest that depression can be caused by excessive serotonin, and the suggestion that lowered levels of serotonin can cause depression has been experimentally disproven. Could you post a link to the lab report from that experiment? In other words, cite? > [@](#): > > What exactly do you think repeating the full name for the SSRI acronym does for your position? Hmmm, maybe **Zoe** was trying to be helpful and tell us what the acronyms mean… ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/260 "2003-11-01T20:33:56Z")
What, you haven’t read the GD thread that started this debate? I have quite a few cites there. Including the ones you ask for. (By the way, if you have to ask for a cite for the statement that appropriate treatments for mental illnesses are chosen by trial and error, you don’t know anything about how physicians actually go about it. Finding an effective antidepressant, for example, can take months – unless a person has a family history that suggests they’ll respond to a particular drug, they can only prescribe and see what the results are.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=14)