# TVAA-you don't know jackshit about mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116 "2003-10-17T23:45:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/101 "2003-10-20T01:42:47Z")
Oh yeah: which “absolutely last response” is this, now? I’ve lost count. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/102 "2003-10-20T03:41:21Z")
You lost count at “1.” Jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/103 "2003-10-20T06:34:32Z")
Interesting coincidences: Two or three years ago our much loved **Mr. Svinlesha** had a rather familiar post in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48815&perpage=50&pagenumber=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48815&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) Here are a couple of excerpts from that thread: > [@](#): > > My basic take on “schizophrenia”, by the way, is also anti-psychiatric. I’ve **worked in psychiatry** a long time (8 years or so) and have to agree with AHunter3 that I’ve seen very little except abuse. (bolding added) You’ve become more modest now, Mr. S. And he also quoted from this study: > [@](#): > > “Devereux asks how one can determine if someone from an entirely different culture is emotionally ill. If a white, middle-class American male believes that he is possessed by witches and demons, then we would probably call him mentally ill. **But if a member of a so-called primitive tribe in Africa holds such a belief, would we say the same thing? Presumably not.** But does this mean that no member of this tribe may become mentally ill or is mentally ill only if he believes he is possessed by radar and microwaves (that is, forces that have no place in his culture)?” – Alford, C. Fred, Melanie Klien and Critical Social Theory. Gee, that sounds so familiar. **DocCathode** , who went to Penn State, also had a jones about cultural bias in diagnosis. I think it may have been in the same thread. And there are others – some old, some new. Were all of these folks separated at birth? Some have quite similar writing quirks. Two or three draw material from old textbooks from about the same period. At least a couple of them could probably benefit from the very medication they scorn. That’s my non-professional opinion, of course.😉 ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/104 "2003-10-20T07:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***Kleptocracy** , so basically, are you trying to say that a person has to WANT to help him or herself? Because if you are, I agree-you can’t force someone to go to therapy. \*\* **Guinastasia** , didn’t you read the [ODD thread?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4061561#post4061561) According to **TVAA** , suggesting that psychotherapy was a matter of choice was > [@](#): > > This is quite possibly the stupidest and most ignorant thing I have ever seen at here at the Straight Dope :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/105 "2003-10-20T12:18:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*You lost count at “1.” > > Jerk. \*\* This is not the first time **Hentor** has said he’ll stop responding to my posts. So which absolutely, positively last time is this? Wetbrain. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/106 "2003-10-20T12:20:57Z")
**Auliya** , that statement was in response to the claim that since change in therapy was voluntary, there wasn’t any reason to worry about its being imposed on people. Way to misrepresent, yo! Ignorant twerp, why don’t you leave this boards and come back when you’ve gained some actual knowledge and about thirty IQ points, eh? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/107 "2003-10-20T12:22:49Z")
Oh, and one last thing: Don’t think we haven’t noticed that you’ve stopped presenting actual objections to my points. When you go up against actual reasoned positions instead of hysterical blather, you lose. You’re merely trying to distract us with personal attacks and selectively misrepresentative quoting. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/108 "2003-10-20T13:50:03Z")
In regards to **Guin** ’s posts: I think part of the problem I perceive here is an attributional one. People like yourself say they have a disorder, and use this to explain their behaviors and emotions. For example: you seem to be implying that you have certain problems because you have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. But that’s technically backwards thinking. You have the diagnosis of OCD because you have certain kinds of problems. The diagnosis is defined in terms of those problems – an underlying disorder is assumed to be their cause, but that’s only an assumption at this point. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the seriousness or validity of your problems. Nor does it have anything to do with assigning praise or blame to you. It’s all about people defining their problems in terms of objective and external factors without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/109 "2003-10-20T15:15:30Z")
**Zoe** : > [@](#): > > _You’ve become more modest now, Mr. S._ Well… I guess wisdom comes with age, **Ms. Z**. I’m not really sure (again) what your point is in the last post, unless it is that one cannot work in psychiatry and study to be a psychotherapist at the same time. Are you accusing me of lying? I did work in psychiatry for several years after my arrival in Sweden, first at the largest mental hospital here (Lillhagen). After a few years I quit Lillhagen (a quite terrible place, by the way) to help start up the long-term living facility at [Gyllenkroken](http://home.swipnet.se/Gyllenkroken/). (On the left hand side of the page you can find a button entitled _Gruppboende Fräntorp_. That’s the facility I worked at. We provided living space and around-the-clock services for six chronic schizophrenics.) I worked there for about 2 years, while at the same time continuing my training as a psychotherapist. In fact, I had only recently quit that job when I wrote the post you quote from. > [@](#): > > - Were all of these folks separated at birth? Some have quite similar writing quirks. Two or three draw material from old textbooks from about the same period. At least a couple of them could probably benefit from the very medication they scorn.\* First off, I don’t “scorn” medication, although I am relatively skeptical of it. I certainly didn’t scorn medication at Fräntorp, where most of the occupants ate massive doses of antidepressants, anxiety dampers, and anti-psychotic medications. They needed them to survive, in most cases. But I am also skeptical of the tendency I often see of reducing schizophrenia to a purely biological disorder. I have yet to encounter a schizophrenic that came from a healthy family. Most of them were subjected to severe abuse as children, often sexual abuse. Finally, I also don’t know what to make of this last comment because, if anything, **TVAA** has been roundly criticized for _failing_ to back up his arguments with cites. But apparently now I’m being criticized _for_ backing up a two-year-old post with a cite. (By the way, the book in question [_Melanie Klien and Critical Social Theory_, by C. Fred Alford] was published by Yale University Press in 1989.) I was unaware that that work, or anything written by George Deveroux, had been cited by the other participants in the current discussion. Do you have a link? ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/110 "2003-10-20T15:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*In regards to **Guin** ’s posts: > People like yourself say they have a disorder, and use this to explain their behaviors and emotions. \*\* **Mr. S:** This is why none of his arguments are valid. They often start out with some ridiculous unprovable assumption like this. I mean, if one can truly speak with a voice of authority about “people like (Guinastasia),” one would have to have intricate firsthand knowledge of Guin. and many people “like” her (presumably those who say they have a mental disorder and use it to explain their behaviors and emotions); would have to be able to provide numerous cites; or would have to be one omniscient motherfucker. Since he’s not provided cites, and since I sincerely doubt he’s the facilitator for the weekly meeting of the “people like Guinastasia society;” I’m going with “motherfucker” as an explanation. It’s the audacity to make a generalization based upon no knowledge, then to ask people to believe that he knows what he’s talking about. THEN to base arguments on extrapolations from that generalization. TVAA, are these the ethical concerns that led you to quitting the psych field? The field’s lack of tolerance for your unfounded generalizations? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/111 "2003-10-20T15:30:07Z")
A “ridiculous unprovable assumption”?! How often have you heard someone say that a person does such and such a thing because they have condition X? It’s called an _attribution_, **greck** , and that particular one is so common that I have a difficult time imagining that anyone living outside a cave could have managed not to hear it. Sweet, merciful Buddha on a bicycle, you’re dumb! ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/112 "2003-10-20T19:20:09Z")
No, \*\*you’re \*\* dumb _and_ you smell funny.:mad: Gonna suggest people “just use common sense” next? You’re saying that anyone who experiences people with mental illnesses differently than you must be dumb? Or are they just not paying attention? Cause your interpretation of thihgs must be correct, right? If it’s just your opinion, state it that way and save us all the trouble of thinking you’re as pompous as you seem to be. I’ve heard people _say_ those things, that doesn’t make them right. It certainly doesn’t justify making a statement as though it were fact; and it definitely doesn’t make it possible to generalize beyond any one given person. so yeah, ridicuous, unprovable. Unless you have proof. ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/113 "2003-10-20T19:58:57Z")
Hey **Guinastasia** , Do people like you say you have a disorder then use it to explain your behaviors and emotions? Any way of proving that? I figured you being the person most like you, you could at least tell us what you are like. I figure that also makes you the best authority on people like you. Unless TVAA is the foremost authority on you and people like you as he/she seems to think. I guess that really wouldn’t provide us with proof, but it would give us a qualified opinion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/114 "2003-10-20T21:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > **…This has nothing whatsoever to do with the seriousness or validity of your problems. Nor does it have anything to do with assigning praise or blame to you…** **Guinistasia** , I believe that **TVAA** is sincere in what he says here – from what I’ve read, he has taken a “detached” and “intellectual” approach to this subject (and possibly with a pinch of _Devil’s Advocacy_ thrown in (apologies to him if that is a slight), whereas, you have (understandably) a direct, intimately personal and emotional, involvement with the subject. It is easy in these circumstances for **TVAA** to seem unsympathetic, critical, or, dismissive. I’ve not seem him to be any of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/115 "2003-10-20T22:19:08Z")
**Mr. Svinlesha** , old textbooks are not reliable sources of current thinking in psychiatry. As a psychotherapist, you should be aware of that. Cheap shots about age are not characteristic of good psychotherapists either. It’s a good thing that I am content enough with my age to mention it often. As for whether or not you are a liar, this is TVAA’s pitting. Are you suggesting that I should address my opinion of your integrity here? I had always enjoyed your posts previously. I will miss that trust. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/116 "2003-10-20T22:51:18Z")
Do I use my OCD to explain my behavior and emotions? The obvious answer is-it depends. Do I use it to explain every little thing, and use it as an excuse? Absolutely not! What I DO use it to explain: -Why I do not drink -For certain things RELATED to OCD (fears, for example, or periods of anxiety). In all honesty, I can’t say I would be THAT much different if I didn’t have it. It’s a great stretch for **TVAA** to say I use to define my personality, if that’s what he’s implying. There are things I can directly link to it: panic attacks, anxiety, feelings of being anxious, shy, low self-esteem, depression. HOWEVER, that’s only when there is no other apparent cause. Say my parents are killed in a car accident. Would I be depressed? Yes. Would that have anything to do with OCD? No. But could it trigger a reaction? Yes. It does tend to peak in times of great stress. That’s just normal-people with physiological conditions often suffer more during stressful times. Do people with heart problems have to avoid stress? Yes. Perhaps I’m wandering a bit. All I can say is, I don’t know HOW much of my personality to assign to my condition and how much to assign to, well, just being me. Because, I suppose, I cannot separate parts of me. It’s not responsible for EVERYTHING about me. It’s not responsible for my intense interest in Russian history. It’s not responsible for my love of _Star Wars_, or my lusting after Goran Visnjic. It’s not responsible for the fact that I prefer my steak medium rare. _shrugs_ ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/117 "2003-10-20T23:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by greck \* > \*\*Hey _Guinastasia_, > > Do people like you say you have a disorder then use it to explain your behaviors and emotions?\*\* Well, of course people do - but that’s because the statement is essentially meaningless! All the statement is saying is - ‘does (some aspect of your mental life) alter how you behave?’. Or, even more trivially, **TVAA** may mean it as ‘does the fact that you suffer from depression mean that you act depressed’? Tautology! However, ISTM (and I have not read the original thread) that the crux of **TVAA** ’s argument is that the organic basis of mental disorders is not well understood. This is, AFAIK, an accurate statement. ---
**Author:** ![Themis00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/13edae/32.png) [@Themis00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themis00)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/118 "2003-10-20T23:14:06Z")
People who claim to have ADHD/OCD/Whatever are retards that want to get high off their medcine. Not really. ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/119 "2003-10-21T00:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\ ***Auliya** , that statement was in response to the claim that since change in therapy was voluntary, there wasn’t any reason to worry about its being imposed on people. > > Way to misrepresent, yo! Ignorant twerp, why don’t you leave this boards and come back when you’ve gained some actual knowledge and about thirty IQ points, eh? \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh, and one last thing: Don’t think we haven’t noticed that you’ve stopped presenting actual objections to my points. When you go up against actual reasoned positions instead of hysterical blather, you lose. You’re merely trying to distract us with personal attacks and selectively misrepresentative quoting. Well are you suggesting that your posts are hysterical blather? Maybe your comprehension levels need seeing to **TVAA** , you really seem not to have understood the post in question at all but put your own biased spin on it. You have not responded to one thing I have asked except to be abusive and provide one solitary cite from a googled article. As far as personal attacks go as distractors - you win first prize ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/120 "2003-10-21T12:39:35Z")
Go take a look at the GD thread, **auliya** dear. **Zoe** : old textbooks are excellent resources for examining the quality of psychiatric thought. By examining the claims previously made about mental disorders and their therapies and comparing them to what we now _know_ (as opposed to suspect or believe), we can get a rough idea of the quality of today’s claims and beliefs. It ain’t pretty, folks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=7)