# TVAA-you don't know jackshit about mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116 "2003-10-17T23:45:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/141 "2003-10-25T11:21:22Z")
😃 I stand in awe of you, sir or madam. (Mr Sam or Mrs Am.) Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/142 "2003-10-25T11:32:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrsam \* > \*\*1) Cultural norms are taken for granted in the formulation of the second law. \*\* Um, no. Cultural norms aren’t referenced, either directly or indirectly. > [@](#): > > \*\*2) The criteria for the second law makes use of the extremely vague terminology such as “entropy” \*\* That’s not extremely vague – it has a very clear and precise definition. > [@](#): > > \*\*3) It presume that the problem is necessarily with the environment rather than with the people. \*\* What? What “problem” does the Second Law of Thermodynamics postulate? Even if we accept thermodynamic inefficiency as a problem, it’s a problem of the universe – which includes both the people and their surroundings. What else can I say? Psychology doesn’t have the empirical support that physics does. Your analogy is deeply flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/143 "2003-10-25T11:39:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by TVAA_ > **What else can I say?** One wonders. It fairly boggles the mind. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/144 "2003-10-25T12:06:56Z")
My complaint is that virtually ALL of physics is unjustified. (There are a few exceptions which are mathematical necessities and are included in the physics textbooks because they are confused with mathematical proof.) Let’s look at one example: antimatter. It’s almost the inverse of matter: instead of being positive, it’s negative. Almost the only factors in common are mass and spin. However, the distinction between matter and antimatter is entirely definitional; we could be living in a universe made up entirely of antimatter and it could be _matter_ which is extremely rare. Yet many people insist that we are made of matter, and that protons and electrons are the underlying substances which cause our existence. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/145 "2003-10-25T12:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*😃 > > I stand in awe of you, sir or madam. (Mr Sam or Mrs Am.) Bravo! \*\* Sorry, I didn’t notice your post at first. I can’t be everywhere, you know. My name is Sam. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/146 "2003-10-25T12:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*😃 > > I stand in awe of you, sir or madam. (Mr Sam or Mrs Am.) Bravo! \*\* Sorry, I didn’t notice your post at first. I can’t be everywhere, you know. My name is Sam. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/147 "2003-10-25T12:21:11Z")
But that’s not a problem. “Matter” is just our word for what the world is primarily made up out of. Your complaint has nothing to do with the points you’ve just established. I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not at this point – which may or may not be your intention. Please point out actual problems with my claims instead of creating obviously-flawed arguments and asserting that they’re similar to my own – if it’s continued past the point of irony, that’s called “attacking a strawman”. I’ve had quite enough of that from everyone else, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/148 "2003-10-25T12:42:14Z")
Funny you should mention strawmen. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by [TVAA](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217252)_ > > I am not contesting the claim that there is something wrong with **revolutionary.** > > I am contesting the claims that we know what causes his wrongness or that the available treatments are known to be other than merely symptomatic. > > Now, if he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease, we could immediately draw certain conclusions about what is wrong with his brain. We could discuss how the available treatments attempt to compensate for that problem. We can’t do that with schizophrenia. > > Do you all understand the difference between a syndrome and a disease? Mental disorders are ALL syndromes at the moment – all of the conditions that were once mental disorders but proved amenable to scientific analysis were moved into neurology and medicine. So, you’re arguing that anything which isn’t amenable to scientific analysis, isn’t necessarily valid? > [@](#): > > To be more specific: a measure, scale, or set of criteria is reliable when its results have a clear relationship to the test data; in other words, if the test tends to give the same result when it’s fed similar data, or if multiple people each applying the test to the data come up with the same result, it’s reliable. > > Validity requires that the results of the test have something to do with what it’s supposed to be testing. It’s much harder to be valid than to be reliable. Validity requires something to be reliable. Reliability requires something to be amenable to scientific analysis. So, something which isn’t amenable to scientific analysis, isn’t necessarily amenably to scientific analysis? What the fuck _is_ your definition of a strawman? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/149 "2003-10-25T12:59:06Z")
Validity requires much more than mere reliability. Reliability requires that something be measurable and relatively consistent. I am attempting to point out that psychology in our current state isn’t scientific, and the existing scientific evidence actually contradicts certain commonly-accepted beliefs about the nature of psychology and psychological disorders. Strawman: an easy-to-demolish false representation of an argument that is attacked in lieu of attacking the argument itself in order to suggest that the argument is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/150 "2003-10-25T13:16:13Z")
Ok. Try and work with me here, **Aide.** All quotes are from you. > [@](#): > > Do you all understand the difference between a syndrome and a disease? Mental disorders are ALL syndromes at the moment – **all of the conditions that were once mental disorders but proved amenable to scientific analysis were moved into neurology and medicine.** > [@](#): > > I am attempting to point out that psychology in our current state isn’t scientific You establish on the first page of that thread that anything that can be scientifically analysed is not psychology. You then argue that psychology in our current state is not scientific. > [@](#): > > **Strawman: an easy-to-demolish false representation of an argument that is attacked in lieu of attacking the argument itself in order to suggest that the argument is invalid.** ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/151 "2003-10-25T13:28:19Z")
[From Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=psychology) > [@](#): > > psy¡chol¡o¡gy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-kl-j) > n. pl. psy¡chol¡o¡gies > The science that deals with mental processes and behavior. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/152 "2003-10-25T13:29:36Z")
No, I established that anything that is amenable to scientific analysis was moved out of psychology. Science can analyze lots of things, but it doesn’t necessarily come up with useful results when doing so. Subjects which have yet to produce meaningful conclusions when analyzed scientifically are not amenable to scientific analysis. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/153 "2003-10-25T13:32:25Z")
**mrsam** , I’m trained as a cognitive psychologist. I’m quite familiar with what aspects of psychology are scientific and which are not. Clinical psychology is not strongly based in science. ---
**Author:** ![mrsam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5ac83/32.png) [@mrsam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/154 "2003-10-25T13:46:36Z")
**TVAA,** I’m also trained as a cognitive psychologist. I’m quite familiar with what aspects of psychology are scientific and which are not. Dealing with clinical conditions with a biological basis is well and truly within the domain of psychology. Given that “anything that is amenable to scientific analysis was moved out of psychology”, then studying the various agnosias is presumably by your logic outside the realm of psychology. In fact, all of visual perception must have been suddenly moved out of the psychology department whilst I wasn’t looking. My professor will be hiding in some random building tomorrow. They’ve quite recently isolated a gene that causes Specific Language Impairment. So I assume that they’ll have to call it medicolinguistics now, instead of psycholinguistics. Just out of interest, what area of cognitive psychology did you study? I’m sure that by your definition, it’s not psychology! By your definition, I’m not a psychologist. I work on attention, but my work in particular deals with hemineglect patients; in particular looking at activity in their parietal lobes or cerebellum. As this can be scientifically measured, voila! It becomes medicine or whatever… I strongly believe that the Standard Social Science Model is inherently flawed and that a paradigm shift is necessary. But the way you’re arguing this is ridiculous. You are arguing against a strawman through your definition. If you were the head of the APA I might listen to you as an authority on defining psychology, but the fact of the matter is you are just some guy who studied cognitive psychology 10 years ago, and your knowledge is probably out of date by now anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/155 "2003-10-25T14:07:01Z")
I agree that examining the biological aspects of behavior and cognition, including the behavior and cognition of people identified as having mental disorders, is scientific. But that’s not what clinical psychology is based on. Disorders that were found to have clear physiological causes have become part of neurology. The disorders that remain in clinical psychology are those that were NOT found to be distinct diseases. Cognitive psychology is indeed a science. It’s an infant science – which means it’s a very exciting time in the field! – but a science nonetheless. Clinical psychology is NOT a science at all. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/156 "2003-10-25T14:19:50Z")
Vorlon > [@](#): > > mrsam, I’m trained as a cognitive psychologist. I don’t believe you. Show us your credentials. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/157 "2003-10-25T19:56:55Z")
Well? Where is your proof, liar? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/158 "2003-10-26T02:19:16Z")
Credentials? For being a cognitive psychologist? I’m not sure you understand what a cognitive psychologist _is_. It’s not as if you need some kind of certification. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/159 "2003-10-26T03:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **TVAA** : …I established that anything that is amenable to scientific analysis was moved out of psychology. Cognitive psychology is not only a science, it is an _empirical_ science. You don’t have to have credentials to study psychology. And technically, the original definition of psychology was _the study of the psyche._ That holds about as much meaning today as the idea that _psyche_ means “breath.” Yes, you need credentials to be _considered_ a cognitive psychologist by others in the field. In this day and age, everyone has had a few psych classes. That does not make someone a psychologist. I had physics in college, but I don’t claim to be a physicist. You are about the only one in this thread who doesn’t show any signs of understanding what psychology is, much less _cognitive psychology._ Why can’t you be content with who you are without all the pretense? If you aren’t satisfied with who you are, then do the work it takes! Shucking and jiving is no way to live. You are probably closer to fooling yourself than you are anyone else here. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116/160 "2003-10-26T09:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Credentials? For being a cognitive psychologist? > > I’m not sure you understand what a cognitive psychologist _is_. It’s not as if you need some kind of certification. \*\* Maybe you should inform the folks at The Department of Psychology at Michigan State University that their [graduate program in cognitive psychology](http://eyelab.msu.edu/graduate_program/general.html) is a waste of everyone’s time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tvaa-you-dont-know-jackshit-about-mental-illness/208116.md?page=9)