# "Twenty-five pieces is not the same as 170,000" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602 "2003-05-02T12:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/21 "2003-05-02T16:43:09Z")
At this rate of backpeddling, they should have more artifacts than they started with by about lunchtime tomorrow … ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/22 "2003-05-02T16:44:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Yeah, they did the same to me. Just because I killed one baby they called me baby killer. \*\* Actually the media paid much more attention the museum looting than when the war saved imprisoned children. The US Marines [freed 160 youngsters](http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030408-125248-3498r) from [a children’s prison in Baghdad where Saddam locked up the kids of parents deemed disloyal to the regime.](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030415.cowent0415/BNStory/International) There are only about a dozen references to the liberation of these children in all of google news, as compared to over four thousand hits on the museum looting. In fact, I didn’t find a single story that was solely about the children’s prison, although it seems newsworthy. Apparently, for many in the media, the importance of a story depends on how badly it reflects on the war, Bush and the US. ---
**Author:** ![futureman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@futureman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/futureman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/23 "2003-05-02T17:14:50Z")
I agree. These posts are certainly not constructive. I am actually surprised to see december cede a single point. Its rare to see one of those admissions of guilt! The Anti-Americanism thread is a real hoot. That’s a debate where people are going to learn things. I thought the straight dope was about fighting ignorance not trying to force your views down other’s throats. You can’t have an intelligent debate if you believe everything you think is right even if you have a flimsy proof or evidence from somewhere to prove everything you say. I am anti-war, but if I were to emulate december, I would make a post like: “Why does Israel control the US foreign policy, and are the Jews trying to control the world?” Then I’d put up a bunch of citations to Justin Raimondo and Pat Buchanan, Noam Chomsky, et al. But I don’t because I realize that my views aren’t always the right ones and that our collective knowledge is much more powerful than mine can ever be. When you start out with a thread titled: “American anti-Americanism: What’s the cause? Will it persist? If not, then what?” the premise of the discussion is based around a point the author is trying to push, namely that there exists Anti-Americanism and that someone could want to have a masochistic desire for harm to come to their country. Its to hard to realize that the changes they want are considered a good them to themselves while their opponents think they are bad. If they want bad things to happen to America, they must hate America. Anyway 1 don’t know 2 don’t know 3. It says that they care about 5,000 year-old history and the negligence is the same no matter how many pieces were lost 4. I hope not considering that the cultural value of 170,000 pieces can be the same as 29 peices. Quit trying to pass off beliefs as facts ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/24 "2003-05-02T18:30:51Z")
I will say something good about my pal december. This place would be very boring if it weren’t for his presence. You should work in a newspaper. I heard that the National Enquierer is hiring. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/25 "2003-05-02T19:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > There are only about a dozen references to the liberation of these children in all of google news, as compared to over four thousand hits on the museum looting. In fact, I didn’t find a single story that was solely about the children’s prison, although it seems newsworthy. Well, if we are going to open up the whole field of news reporting on the war, why don’t we look into some other things: (1) How many statues of Hussein were brought down and exactly how many people were involved? To see the news media tell it, the whole country was one big raucous celebration. However, I have heard reports in alternative circles suggesting that that statue of Hussein conveniently pulled down right near the hotel where all the journalists were staying may have involved rather few people loyal to one of these Iranian exiles. I don’t know what the truth is about all this, but it doesn’t seem to be keeping **december** awake nights. (2) How many times were we treated to big front page [or top story] headlines about WMDs apparently being found and then, when the retractions came, were they given the same billing? (3) How many times were we treated to “news” about the war which was essentially sourced directly from the U.S. military command or from reporters embedded with the military? Yeah, those reporters, they’ve really been going after Bush like pit-bulls…well, okay…maybe like golden retrievers. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/26 "2003-05-02T22:13:37Z")
I’ve got Assyriologist (= researcher on ancient Mesopotamia) and Islamicist colleagues with colleagues and friends on the staffs of Iraqi museums and libraries. Folks, we are talking **huge** amounts of destruction (both deliberate and accidental) and looting; nationwide I’d guess it will end up at well over half a million items, if not in the millions. An Oxford cuneiformist colleague is [keeping track](http://users.ox.ac.uk/~wolf0126/bombed.html) of reports of cultural heritage loss in Iraq, if you want to follow the news about it. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/27 "2003-05-03T02:24:10Z")
I find it very amusing in a sort of depressing way that the US military had enough manpower to send soldiers over to the Al Rashid hotel to tear up the floor mosaic of King George I, but claimed that they could not spare a tank and a platoon to save 5,000 years of Iraqi antiquities. I guess it’s just a matter of priorities.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/28 "2003-05-03T02:29:02Z")
I’m more distressed, though not surprised, that US forces managed to secure all of Iraq’s oil wells and the oil ministry in Baghdad, but couldn’t lift a finger for this museum. Priorities, like I said. December, that’s great about the saved children, although your rationale for it is loopy. Those liberals on FOX will show anything to make America look bad, won’t they? I think jshore makes several good point in his post. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/29 "2003-05-03T02:31:35Z")
Um, why was there a floor mosaic of George I? Did British soldiers put it there? (Or do you mean Dubya?) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/30 "2003-05-03T02:33:37Z")
I doubt there’d be a floor mosaic of either Bush in Iraq. Don’t ask me why. 😛 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/31 "2003-05-03T13:40:10Z")
Saddam Hussein had a floor mosaic of George HW Bush (#41) installed in the lobby of the Al Rashid hotel after Gulf War I. In the Arab world, the biggest insult you can give someone is to show them the bottom of your shoes, which are theoretically filthy. Thus, this was a tremendous insult to GHWB because everyone using the lobby would be walking over the mosaic of the former president. This information has been shown on the news repeatedly over the past decade or so. I hope I don’t need to provide you with a specific link. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/32 "2003-05-03T13:43:27Z")
I said I wouldn’t post a link, but here you go. [http://www.adn.com/24hour/weird/story/849857p-5960192c.html](http://www.adn.com/24hour/weird/story/849857p-5960192c.html) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/33 "2003-05-03T16:05:29Z")
I just found this [article](http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/629xnqei.asp), which purports to explain the exaggeration of the looting, as well as other exaggerations. > [@](#): > > - You have no idea how well things are going.\* > > …the intensity of the population’s pro-American enthusiasm is astonishing, even to an early believer in the liberation of Iraq, and continues unabated despite delays in restoring power and water to the city. It’s things like the reaction of the locals to black troops. They seem to be amazed by their presence in the American army. One group of kids in a poor neighborhood shouted “Mike Tyson, Mike Tyson” at Staff Sergeant Darren Swain; the daughter of a diplomat on the other hand informed him, “One of my maids has the same skin as you.” > > It’s things like the way the women old and young flirt outrageously with GIs…,Or the way the little girls seem to speak much better English than the little boys who are always elbowing them out of the way. > > … To an amazing degree, the Baghdad-based press corps avoids writing about or filming the friendly dealings between U.S. forces here and the local population–most likely because to do so would require them to report the extravagant expressions of gratitude that accompany every such encounter. Instead you read story after story about the supposed fury of Baghdadis at the Americans for allowing the breakdown of law and order in their city. > > Well, I’ve met hundreds of Iraqis as I accompanied army patrols all over the city during the past two weeks and I’ve never encountered any such fury (even in areas that were formerly controlled by the Marines, who as the premier warrior force were never expected to carry out peacekeeping or policing functions). … > > Perhaps this is just another case of reporters with an anti-American or antiwar agenda. Perhaps living in Saddam’s totalitarian Baghdad has left some of the press here with a case of Stockholm syndrome. It may also be a byproduct of depending on interpreters and fixers who were connected to or worked with the approval of the Saddam regime. And you cannot underestimate the herd instinct that can take over when you have a lot of media folk in a confined area for any length of time. But whatever the cause, the result has been very selective reporting. > > \*\*The Associated Press’s Hamza Hendawi, for instance, massively exaggerated and misrepresented the nature of the looting in Baghdad in the first days after the U.S. armored forces took key points in the city. Like so many Baghdad-based reporters, she described an “unchecked frenzy” that did not exist at that time (the looting was targeted and nonviolent, in the sense that the looters attacked neither persons nor inhabited dwellings). Read her pieces and you’ll meet a veritable parade of Iraqis who are angry with the United States. \*\* > > …There are frequent small demonstrations in the blocks outside the Palestine and Sheraton hotels–partly because that is where the press corps is congregated, but also because it’s an area that many Baath party officials fled to after the war began. Anyone who assumes that the atmosphere of that downtown area is in any way representative of the city would be gravely mistaken. However, many reporters have chosen to do just that rather than venture further out to places where they would have seen that far more typical and frequent “demonstrations” involve hundreds or even thousands of Iraqis gathering to cheer U.S. troops. Admittedly, some of those crowds include people begging for money, desperate for aid, or just curious about these strange-looking foreigners. “Most children here have never seen a foreigner” one Iraqi civilian explained to me, “that is why they are so excited.” Another told me with a smile, “Everyone here wanted to go to America; now America has come here!” > > **More irritating is the myth constantly repeated by antiwar columnists that the military let the city be destroyed–in particular the hospitals and the national museum–while guarding the Ministry of Oil. The museum looting is turning out to have been grotesquely exaggerated. And there is no evidence for the ministry of oil story. Depending on the article, the Marines had either a tank or a machine gun nest outside the ministry. Look for a photo of that tank or that machine gun nest and you’ll look in vain. And even if the Marines had briefly guarded the oil ministry it would have been by accident: The Marines defended only the streets around their own headquarters and so-called Areas of Operation. Again, though, given the pro-regime sources favored by so many of the press corps huddled in the Palestine Hotel, it’s not surprising that this rumor became gospel.** > > …But my favorite mad media moment was when an AP journalist turned up in a car heading to the Ministry of Information, the top floor of which was on fire. _“Why aren’t you putting out the fire?”_ she angrily demanded of Sgt. William Moore. He looked at her with astonishment and asked, _“How the hell am I supposed to do that?”_ Turning away, he muttered, _“Piss on it?”_ > > _Jonathan Foreman is a correspondent for the New York Post, embedded with the Scout Platoon of the 4th Battalion, 64th Armored Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad._ The entire article is worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/34 "2003-05-03T16:20:59Z")
The New York Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch. I trust the reliability of this source about as much as I trust Fox News, which is not at all. Their credibility is zero. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/35 "2003-05-03T16:22:26Z")
I ain’t reading the article. I have eyeballs. Do you **december**? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/36 "2003-05-03T16:29:11Z")
**December** , there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was for the most part a monster, and that the majority of the Iraqi people are glad to be rid of him. And on the presumption that we keep our promises and enable them to have a free democratic government chosen by themselves, we’re liberators. There remain large questions about whether our intervention, now and in the way we did, was the right move for America to make. As previously noted, I have reasons to feel that it was, though I had some strong questions going into it. A person who expresses his negative views about acts committed or planned to be committed by his government, in a representative democracy, is not being unpatriotic but the reverse. No doubt there are a noisy few Americans who hate our government – but to tar the remainder of those who expressed their views with being equivalent to them is reprehensible. Either that, or every Republican in America should be locked up for having the temerity to object to the choices made by the Administrations of FDR, HST, JFK, LBJ, Carter, and Clinton. Either it works both ways, or it doesn’t work at all. The fact remains, spokesmen for the museum came out with the 170,000 estimate – and may have exaggerated some. After all, the man who embezzled $1,998,634.82 was telling the honest truth when he denied having embezzled two million dollars! There seems to be little question that looters did remove a fair number of historical artifacts from the museum, whatever their motives – and that a thorough inventory stored elsewhere may not have been made. If someone burglarized your house, could you identify every artifact that might have been removed. How many bars of soap are stored in your bathroom? Exactly how many books do you own? Can you give a precise count and listing of the CDs in your collection? Where are those lists kept, if you have them – what if they’re stored in your home and the burglars burned them? Objectivity in reportage is an unattainable ideal, simply because every word in the English language carries some sort of connotation – even using the scientific term for something carries the flavor of a choice not to use the commonplace term for it, for whatever reason – but I prefer my news to be as close to unbiased as possible. We’ve discussed at length the slants carried by staff of various news sources, “embedded” journalists, and so on – if you can’t see grounds for a legitimate balance between perspectives, I pity you. (And that was irony; I do believe you can.) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/37 "2003-05-03T16:31:08Z")
It must be wonderful to live in a world where you can choose the reality you want. We saw the lootings on TV. We saw room after room after room of the museum totally looted and destroyed. And now we are supposed to believe it did not happen at all because some guy says so without further explanation. That is pure fanaticism: believeing what you want to believe rather than the evidence in front of you. december might not like it but the fact is we saw the lootings and the estimation that it was a disaster has been repeated by scholars around the world. Some dimwit saying it was “not so bad” will only convince those who are blinded by their fanaticism. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/38 "2003-05-03T17:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **There remain large questions about whether our intervention, now and in the way we did, was the right move for America to make.** Thank you for writing that, **Poly**. I’d only wish more people on the pro-war side would be open-minded enough to recognize the above without going into spastic knee-jerks, calling anyone who dares question the wisdom of the actions taken, anything and everything from “anti-American” to “Saddam lover.” It appears that the arrogance and hubris displayed by the current administration has seeped down to most of their backers. Criticism is not just unwelcomed, but seen as a major affront. It is that same attitude that has managed to alienate the United States from the world community to a level that was simply unthinkable only a short 18 months ago – and unprecedent in my, arguably, ample lifetime. Not a good sign, no matter how much people like **december** , wish to ignore that fact. In truth, most definitive answers to the actions taken in both, Iraq and Afghanistan (the forgotten invasion), lie in the future. But by the same token, if past and present record is anything to go by… ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/39 "2003-05-03T20:28:35Z")
Liberals “difinitive answers” always lie in the future. How else can you people preach your scaretactics and try to cast aspersions on those that disagree with you with your end-of-the-world rhetoric. Remember when the “difinitive answers” about the attrocities of the war lied in the fututre. The answers of hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. The answers of years of fighting and the us being assailed with terorism upon terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602/40 "2003-05-03T20:37:31Z")
Yeah, how dare liberals think about the future. What a stupid thing to do. It’s not like our actions of have consequences. 😛 > [@](#): > > The answers of hundreds of thousands of civilians dead. Yup, hundreds of thousands aren’t dead. Thousands are. Phew. I’m sure no one will be mad at the United States for that. > [@](#): > > The answers of years of fighting and the us being assailed with terorism upon terrorism? The war ended a few weeks ago (and few suggested this war would go on for years). There hasn’t been time for years and years of ANYTHING. Meanwhile, there are anti-US rallies on a very regular basis in Iraq. At some of the most recent ones, demonstrators have been shot. Another thing sure to increase Iraqi goodwill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-five-pieces-is-not-the-same-as-170-000/172602.md?page=3)