# Twenty percent of New York students opt out of high stakes testing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047 "2015-08-17T04:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/21 "2015-08-18T17:13:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For professional reasons I’m leery of airing my opinion about opting out, even under a pseudonym. Big Education carries a big stick? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/22 "2015-08-18T17:21:57Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > What age does this weeks and weeks of stressful testing start? My daughter’s testing is nothing like that so far. In our school district, “weeks” begins in third grade. Before that it’s just “days and days”. In early grades, the students are often pulled aside one by one while the rest of the class is given busy work. It varies by district and state. Ours (Chicago) is actually one of the shortest. [The Roots of Teaching-Bashing (Opinion)](http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblogs%2F59%2F%3Fuuid%3D37329) ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/23 "2015-08-18T18:50:09Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Here’s a story from one of my kid’s 2nd grade class. The teacher was probably the best teacher I’ve ever seen, in all of my years of school combined. All the students would have a little clicker, like they used to have on \*Who Wants to be a Millionaire. \* The teacher would display various questions for the whole class, and everyone would very quickly click what they thought the answer was. This applied to any manner of subject the teacher devised. Instantly she would see the results of the class, and based on a series of quick questions, could assess how the class was absorbing the material. She could accelerate or decelerate immediately. Not only that, each student’s responses were tabulated for later and she could identify a student who individually was or was not grasping the material. I’ve never seen it before, and I think it was awesome. I don’t know where she got the tool, or the software. It definitely is not standard at the school. Testing is a quick way to find out where people are at with certain baseline knowledge. It’s a tool. Clickers are great, and have been around for some time. You’ve described their use beautifully. They allow the teacher to rapidly see what every student in the class is absorbing about the material (assuming the teacher is asking good questions, of course) and adjust accordingly. The teacher gets instant feedback on how she’s doing, and can help the students improve in the subject. It’s a win all around. They have little or nothing to do with standardized tests though, except insofar as they are by nature multiple choice. Standardized tests don’t help improve instruction or outcomes. The students are taking the tests near the end of the year, don’t get any feedback for weeks or months, and their instruction cannot be adjusted to improve their skills and knowledge. Because of that, the students don’t have much stake in the tests, and have no incentive to do their best (at most, a passing score may be required for advancement). The teacher typically gets only aggregate information and so can’t easily determine areas for improvement in instruction. _Pace_ college admissions tests, standardized tests are of no use to students, and punish teachers and schools without providing any guidance. Mostly, standardized tests are a good way for Pearson and the College Board to make big piles of money. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/24 "2015-08-18T18:55:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Without some sort of standardized testing, how can one judge and compare different schools? > > If one school has say 25% of 9th graders doing math at grade level and another had 75% and another has 10%, isnt that a good thing to know before you decide which school to put your kid into? If test scores are your best criterion for choosing a school, you needn’t bother to look at them. They are a proxy for the socioeconomic class of the student body. Just find out the percent of students on free or reduced-price lunch, or look at the makes of the cars driving the kids to school or the house prices in the area, and you’ll know where to send them. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/25 "2015-08-18T21:04:54Z")
I have a fourth grader and a fifth grader who, I think, take standardized tests every year with no stress or drama. Know why? Because as their parents, we approach the tests with no stress and no drama. “Oh, your TCAPs are next week? Well, that’s no big deal. You’ll do fine. Just do your best.” When the scores come back, we give them about as much consideration as their art homework. “Oh, a 92 percentile? Great job honey. Do you have any spelling words we need to go over?” No big deal for us or them, yet there is value in knowing that they are (or are not) performing at the expected grade level and that our school is meeting state targets. If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/26 "2015-08-18T21:42:59Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I have a fourth grader and a fifth grader who, I think, take standardized tests every year with no stress or drama. Know why? Because as their parents, we approach the tests with no stress and no drama. “Oh, your TCAPs are next week? Well, that’s no big deal. You’ll do fine. Just do your best.” When the scores come back, we give them about as much consideration as their art homework. “Oh, a 92 percentile? Great job honey. Do you have any spelling words we need to go over?” > > No big deal for us or them, yet there is value in knowing that they are (or are not) performing at the expected grade level and that our school is meeting state targets. > > If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. No big deal for you, no big deal for us. You sound like attentive parents that are aware of what your kids are doing in school. I’d argue that the two pieces of information you say the tests give you, whether your kids are at grade level and that the school is meeting targets, are things you already know. You see the work your kids do, and you probably go to back-to-school night and parent conferences so you know the teachers and see the school on a regular basis. Your kids also probably go to school with a bunch of other kids whose families are like yours. If your kids are in the 90+ percentile, probably most of the school is, too, and you can be pretty sure that its a decent school (or at least that the population is high achieving by measures that track with income and parental education). You are also assuming that the tests are good measures of the things you want to know, and that is far from evident. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/27 "2015-08-18T22:25:59Z")
> [@RickG](#): > > Clickers are great, and have been around for some time. You’ve described their use beautifully. They allow the teacher to rapidly see what every student in the class is absorbing about the material (assuming the teacher is asking good questions, of course) and adjust accordingly. The teacher gets instant feedback on how she’s doing, and can help the students improve in the subject. It’s a win all around. > > They have little or nothing to do with standardized tests though, except insofar as they are by nature multiple choice. Standardized tests don’t help improve instruction or outcomes. The students are taking the tests near the end of the year, don’t get any feedback for weeks or months, and their instruction cannot be adjusted to improve their skills and knowledge. Because of that, the students don’t have much stake in the tests, and have no incentive to do their best (at most, a passing score may be required for advancement). The teacher typically gets only aggregate information and so can’t easily determine areas for improvement in instruction. _Pace_ college admissions tests, standardized tests are of no use to students, and punish teachers and schools without providing any guidance. > > Mostly, standardized tests are a good way for Pearson and the College Board to make big piles of money. But think about this at a higher level because I think this example is illustrative. In what way is the federal department of Ed able to assess how a school is doing? How would an outsider assess whether Normandy High School in Missouri is failing or not without a way to measure it against other schools? I agree, the students and teachers do not get timely or any feedback regarding the tests at an individual level, but they are not the audience. It’s not a criticism that the results are not useful to the classroom teacher. When it comes to the tests as compared to the clicker, the school itself is the one using the clicker and the Dept of Ed is the teacher. The way they get information is through the tests. At a larger scale, can you think of a different way to assess academic achievement across a large body of students? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/28 "2015-08-18T23:31:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > At a larger scale, can you think of a different way to assess academic achievement across a large body of students? Graduation rates, trade school and college placement rates, job placement rates, average income 1 year after graduation… I’m not sure why the feds need to monitor elementary schools. They feed into junior high and high schools, so those schools can monitor student readiness when they enter. Don’t get me wrong…I’m actually in favor of Common Core for the most part. I think they’re good, age appropriate standards (mostly) and I think it’s a good idea for kids in Indiana to be learning the same thing as their grade level peers in Wyoming, so that kids who move from Indiana to Wyoming won’t be ahead and bored or behind and overwhelmed. But I’m not a fan of the testing that came packaged with Common Core. I think we should hand the teachers the standards and get out of their way to be the educators they’re trained to be, using observation, benchmark assessments, student portfolios, rubrics, and progress monitoring tools (including classroom testing). Then we let the principals evaluate their teachers, using observation, interviews, portfolios, and rubrics, as the administrators they’re trained to be. I’ve only been observing for 30 years or so, but it seems to me that the more state and federal “oversight,” the worse the schools are getting. It’s just bloated layers of bureaucracy at this point. And if the feds want to run things, then why do we need school districts and superintendents and principals at all? This does hinge on making academic rigor in schools a real thing again. No social promotion to protect fragile egos (mostly of parents), clearly defined standards for students to meet at each grade level (Common Core is good for that) and the ability to fire teachers who don’t meet standards after remediation - as measured by their principals, backed up by documentation, just like in any other job. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/29 "2015-08-19T00:03:18Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I have a fourth grader and a fifth grader who, I think, take standardized tests every year with no stress or drama. Know why? Because as their parents, we approach the tests with no stress and no drama. “Oh, your TCAPs are next week? Well, that’s no big deal. You’ll do fine. Just do your best.” When the scores come back, we give them about as much consideration as their art homework. “Oh, a 92 percentile? Great job honey. Do you have any spelling words we need to go over?” > > No big deal for us or them, yet there is value in knowing that they are (or are not) performing at the expected grade level and that our school is meeting state targets. > > If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. TCAPs, eh? Another Tennessean? My daughter is the same. She’s in 4th grade and the tests last a week but are only a couple hours long. She dreads them because they’re boring but they’re not stressful. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/30 "2015-08-19T03:07:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I also question your characterization of “high stakes” testing. Why the charged language? It’s pretty high stakes in NYC, where the opt out rate is 1.4% according to the Times article. In NYC public schools there are dozens of middle schools in each district that students can apply to and the test scores are used in varying degrees to determine entry. Some schools have a hard cut-off below which an application won’t even be considered. Middle school admission is based on the 4th grade test so the pressure for that is huge. High School is the same and is based on the 7th grade test. In a lot of places including where I grew up, students just go from one school to the next so testing wasn’t so big a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/31 "2015-08-19T04:39:57Z")
I heard of a middle school in Kansas City Missouri that had this principal all the teachers hated. To get rid of him they deliberately told the kids to do bad on the tests. Yes, he was soon gone. Thinking back on it, one way some students could have made their teachers or school look bad would be to deliberately fail the tests. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/32 "2015-08-19T04:46:04Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. But that’s less likely to be the parents than the teachers, prodded on by administrators. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/33 "2015-08-19T14:19:42Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But that’s less likely to be the parents than the teachers, prodded on by administrators. That would be if staff are worried about losing their jobs or their pay is based on how the kids do on the tests. No, I dont want tests to be used for that solely. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/34 "2015-08-19T20:19:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think you probably took standardized tests as part of your education, through college though, right? The ability to perform well on these tests impact at a minimum the process by which you earned a degree. The only one I took in seven years of higher education was a gatekeeper test to become a teacher: I had to show some basic knowledge of pedagogy. The next closest I’ve come to a standardized test was a three-hour, six-question essay test taken at a testing center as part of my National Boards. Other than these, standardized tests have been blessedly absent from my life. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe the tests replace classroom assessment. It’s not necessarily double work, though I agree it could be. The classroom assessment has a different purpose than the standardized tests I presume. The standardized tests are meant to evaluate students to a certain specific standard. The classroom itself can evaluate students on different criteria if it chooses. But the idea is that folks in certain grade levels should have a certain core set of knowledge, and the standardized tests are a way to assess that. They are supposed to represent a baseline. But then what do you do with that knowledge? Two example kids, a few insignificant details changed to make them unidentifiable: Garner comes from an upper class family. Both parents are attorneys who worked for the state department. Garner went to embassy schools or private schools until first grade. He came to third grade reading middle-school chapter books like the full Harry Potter series, writing cursive, and completing fourth grade math books for fun. My quiver of extra challenge activities (“Let me show you how to create Pascal’s Triangle, and you can look for patterns! What’s the relationship between each perfect square in the series? Model the square-cube ratio!” etc.) was quickly exhausted with him: things that kept other kids occupied for days would be solved by him in five minutes. Rodney’s dad was in jail, and his mom was going to prison in September. He lived with his aunt while his mom was in prison. He saw his uncle get shot during the beginning of the school year. He lived in a high-crime neighborhood. His aunt’s work and parole schedule meant that he was up till 11:30 many school nights, babysat primarily by an iPad with an unrestricted Netflix account. He regularly showed up at school an hour after the tardy bell rings, sleepy and angry. Come end-of-grade tests, Garner scored in the 98th or 99th percentile on the tests. Rodney scored in the lowest quintile on the tests. What do you learn about my pedagogy from these results? What do you learn about my school from these results? Sure, you could say, “Dorkness is ineffective at teaching children living in poverty.” But what would Rodney have scored if he’d had a different teacher? Higher? Worse? You might say, “Dorkness is effective at teaching upper-class kids.” But maybe Garner would have been in the 98th percentile with a truly terrible teacher. If children were commodities, standardized testing would make a lot of sense. As it is, it’s extraordinarily difficult to design a fair system. > [@](#): > > Not everything can be taught in the limited time available. In the example you gave, I’d rather the 2nd goal be mastered before the first. If it takes a huge amount of time to teach the second, then that should be a prerequisite for the learning the first. But I think that’s just this example. In general, I think there are things that are going to be easier and harder to create tests for, and the idea you are advancing is that teachers will tend to teach what is easier rather than what is harder, at times to the detriment of other areas that are equally or more valuable, right? If I’m clear on what you’re saying, you’re saying teachers will tend to teach what is easier **to test** than what is harder **to test** , right? And yes, that’s correct. > [@](#): > > I think what you say may happen. But then again, I think that a certain baseline knowledge should be a prerequisite to other advanced topics. If those baseline items are all mastered, then they should take very little time. If it does take a huge amount of teaching time to gain mastery over the basics, then that’s probably time well spent. What constitutes the basics should vary based on the grade level of course. The problem is that what’s baseline knowledge, and what’s easy to test, and what’s vital to know, aren’t always the same. > [@](#): > > If the test scores for a particular subject at a particular grade level are significantly different in City A vs. City B, I’ve learned something. > … > At a larger scale, can you think of a different way to assess academic achievement across a large body of students? What you’ve almost certainly learned about City A and City B are the respective poverty levels in those cities. That’s an overriding factor in student achievement on pass/fail tests. As for whether there’s a different way, I’d suggest that no data is better than bad data. If we use standardized test outcomes to draw conclusions about teacher or school efficacy, that’s worse than drawing conclusions based on a dartboard, because the tests give the illusion of accuracy, when they provide no such thing. It’s better to draw subjective conclusions than to draw objective conclusion based on inappropriate data. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/35 "2015-08-19T21:43:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here goes. > > There are a lot of common core goals in math and language arts. Some of those goals are easier to test than others. Compare: > > to > > The second goal is easy to write multiple choice questions for. Give a kid a nonfiction reading passage, then ask them “Which of the following is the best title for the passage you just read?” > > The first goal is nearly impossible to write a multiple choice question for. In my experience, nobody writes such questions. > > If a school’s future depends on kids filling in the correct bubbles, administration may require teachers to teach to the test. Teachers will spend a huge amount of time teaching children to come up with alternate titles for nonfiction texts, and little to no time teaching children how to conduct research. > > Are you okay with this result of high-stakes testing? I’m torn on the testing thing. On the one hand, I don’t see teaching to the test as being the best may to have a child grasp subject matter. On the other, I think it serves us well to know which schools are doing a good job and a bad job. And a horrendous job. Is there an alternative you would suggest that would allow us to determine which schools are effective teaching environments and which are not? From what I can tell, large scale testing at least does a fairly good job at that. Would you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/36 "2015-08-19T23:45:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > From what I can tell, large scale testing at least does a fairly good job at that. Would you agree? Definitely not. In North Carolina, EOGs were used to assign schools grades from A-F. Every single school with a D or an F was a high-poverty school. Teachers matter, make no mistake. But a mediocre teacher with a bunch of high SES students with involved parents will beat the pants off a very good teacher with a bunch of low SES students with parents who don’t know how, or aren’t willing, to prioritize academics. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/37 "2015-08-20T05:10:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The only one I took in seven years of higher education was a gatekeeper test to become a teacher: I had to show some basic knowledge of pedagogy. The next closest I’ve come to a standardized test was a three-hour, six-question essay test taken at a testing center as part of my National Boards. Other than these, standardized tests have been blessedly absent from my life. You probably took more prior to higher education though, right? In any event, it may not be applicable to all persons, but it certainly is to a great many people. > [@](#): > > What do you learn about my pedagogy from these results? What do you learn about my school from these results? Well, first I learned what the word “pedagogy” meant - I had to look it up 🙂 I don’t know that you learn a lot about an individual teacher, student, or any particularized data. But what you can learn is data on a macro level. You learn trends, additional data to do analysis, etc. The ability to compare schools, districts, etc. that cuts across the other variables and has one standard measure across the population is valuable. My support is two pronged: [ol] [li]I think students should demonstrate a minimum academic level of achievement before advancing. Tests ensure that minimum.[/li][li]I think data can provide insight as to which schools and districts at a macro level should warrant further examination.[/li][/ol] > [@](#): > > If children were commodities, standardized testing would make a lot of sense. As it is, it’s extraordinarily difficult to design a fair system. You would refer to the circumstance outside of the school, be it socio economic background, or other demographic factors that make the system unfair, is that correct? I think the nature of the standardized test is that it is inherently fair in that the questions are the same for all students. It’s only not fair in the sense that life isn’t fair - but the test itself is neutral. > [@](#): > > The problem is that what’s baseline knowledge, and what’s easy to test, and what’s vital to know, aren’t always the same. Then the test should be modified - unless you think it impossible to craft a test to focus on what is vital to know? These things can be assessed by some method. But that’s not a problem with the testing process, but the test material. > [@](#): > > What you’ve almost certainly learned about City A and City B are the respective poverty levels in those cities. That’s an overriding factor in student achievement on pass/fail tests. But the results of the test data will not simply be pass or fail. The degree to which students pass or fail, individually and in aggregate, can tell more than poverty levels. Assume you control for poverty, and see different results across schools, or other various outliers, isn’t that valuable information? I think it exaggerates the criticism if you say no information can be gleaned. If I look at a school with high rates of free and reduced lunch, am I to assume that the students will perform poorly? What if there are schools that have those high rates but perform well? Wouldn’t that be valuable information? > [@](#): > > As for whether there’s a different way, I’d suggest that no data is better than bad data. If we use standardized test outcomes to draw conclusions about teacher or school efficacy, that’s worse than drawing conclusions based on a dartboard, because the tests give the illusion of accuracy, when they provide no such thing. It’s better to draw subjective conclusions than to draw objective conclusion based on inappropriate data. I don’t know if no data is better than bad data. It may be. But bad data can be subjected to rigor and other analytics, hypothesis, and further testing. What do you do with no data? Rely on the individual educator to determine what the best course of action is? That person may know best for their class, but are they going to propose wide ranging efforts across the country and be able to implement them? I don’t know if you can determine teacher or school efficacy from the tests, but at a minimum you can draw conclusions on the ability of the students to demonstrate their ability to pass, or not. > [@](#): > > In North Carolina, EOGs were used to assign schools grades from A-F. Every single school with a D or an F was a high-poverty school. And are we to assume that these schools can never overcome this, that until the poverty is eradicated the schools are doomed? How would you measure that a school is improving? And even if those D or F schools spent their entire curriculum teaching to the test, if the students then pass, wouldn’t you think that’s a positive outcome? I would. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/38 "2015-08-20T10:45:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You would refer to the circumstance outside of the school, be it socio economic background, or other demographic factors that make the system unfair, is that correct? I think the nature of the standardized test is that it is inherently fair in that the questions are the same for all students. It’s only not fair in the sense that life isn’t fair - but the test itself is neutral. “Fair” in the sense that it measures actual quality of teacher pedagogy. > [@](#): > > Then the test should be modified - unless you think it impossible to craft a test to focus on what is vital to know? These things can be assessed by some method. But that’s not a problem with the testing process, but the test material. I’m unconvinced you can make a standardized test that accurately, precisely, and objectively measures a student’s ability to conduct a short research project, or to write a persuasive letter, or to design an experiment using valid scientific procedures. These are things much better assessed through observing students as they do them. Sure, you can design test questions that address them. But if classroom A has impoverished students who conduct research projects and write letters and do experiments, and classroom B drills the students all year on how to answer multiple choice questions that address these standards, classroom B will probably see better results on the test–even though their students would bomb a performance assessment. If the stakes are high, principals are going to ask for classroom B. > [@](#): > > If I look at a school with high rates of free and reduced lunch, am I to assume that the students will perform poorly? What if there are schools that have those high rates but perform well? Wouldn’t that be valuable information? Sure, it might be interesting. It might point to a classroom B. If you use results to decide where to focus your qualitative assessment, I’m not too chuffed. Unfortunately, a lot of folks use the results to draw conclusions. > [@](#): > > What do you do with no data? Rely on the individual educator to determine what the best course of action is? That person may know best for their class, but are they going to propose wide ranging efforts across the country and be able to implement them? I don’t have a great answer. I know that the current use of data, the cargo cult surrounding data, is leading administrators and educators across the country to make educational decisions that I believe are very harmful to their students. > [@](#): > > And even if those D or F schools spent their entire curriculum teaching to the test, if the students then pass, wouldn’t you think that’s a positive outcome? I would. Really, you would? School A has impoverished students who read novels, who have art and music and science and social studies, who do math in real-world contexts. School B has eliminated all extra activities, spends all day drilling students on multiple choice reading passages and multiple choice math tests. If School B gets more students to pass the end of grade test, that’s a success? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/39 "2015-08-20T12:46:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Definitely not. In North Carolina, EOGs were used to assign schools grades from A-F. Every single school with a D or an F was a high-poverty school. > > Teachers matter, make no mistake. But a mediocre teacher with a bunch of high SES students with involved parents will beat the pants off a very good teacher with a bunch of low SES students with parents who don’t know how, or aren’t willing, to prioritize academics. Okay. Then what do you think is the best way fro us to know which schools are doing a good job and which aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/40 "2015-08-20T14:27:07Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Out of curiosity just what are those instructions? I don’t remember exactly. My friend was telling a group of us about the tests, and we were just all shocked about hearing how bad everything was. I did look online to see if I could find the instructions, and I couldn’t find them, [but I did find this article written by a teacher](http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20140502-special-education-teachers-staar-questions-unanswered.ece) saying that they wrap it in a plastic bag and send it in, so I guess that’s part of the instructions. > [@Skammer](#): > > If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. Like others said, it’s probably the teachers and administrators that are freaking the kids out unintentionally. Parents could be the most relaxed, supportive parents ever, but if the kids go to school hearing every day about how big a deal these tests are, a lot of kids are going to get stressed out. > [@magellan01](#): > > Okay. Then what do you think is the best way fro us to know which schools are doing a good job and which aren’t? I’m not whole-heartedly against standardized testing, I just think how much they’ve expanded and how much emphasis is placed on them is bad. I think first before measuring what schools are doing a good job and which are not, I would try to get resources more equitably distributed amongst schools. I know that there are some schools with an excess of resources, and some that are hurting. A school with up to date computers, calculators, textbooks, and enough desks, pens, teachers, and other resources, is going to do better than schools where teachers have to pay for everything in their classroom and are stressed out about the school supplies being lost or stolen. I’d keep standardized testing, but work out what would be a reasonable amount of it. I don’t know how much would be reasonable, but do something so that so much emphasis isn’t put towards teaching towards the test. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047.md?page=3)