# Twenty percent of New York students opt out of high stakes testing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047 "2015-08-17T04:32:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/61 "2015-08-21T22:08:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At the risk of using a bad analogy, imagine a kid is malnourished: poor levels of vitamin A, vitamin C, iron, and vitamin B12. You’ve got a test for vitamin C, but not for any other vitamin. The kid’s diet current contains low levels of all these nutrients. Does it make sense to eliminate the kid’s current sources for vitamins A and B12 and iron so that you can ensure adequate levels of vitamin C? > > Because that’s what happens when you test only reading and math. Kids need science and social studies and PE and music and art. Eliminating those because you can’t test them is going to harm kids. You’re right, that’s a bad analogy 🙂 It’s not that bad actually. But this assumes equal value between the different vitamins, in that sacrificing one to promote another would have a neutral or detrimental effect. My position is that sacrificing some things like how to write a research paper, or band, or some other item that does not have as much value as the core items that are being tested, is on balance a net positive. > [@](#): > > I’m not. Beyond the ideal of a well-rounded person, art and music may keep kids engaged in school who would otherwise check out, and we have a real tendency to undervalue intangibles like engagement. Furthermore, art and music have math embedded in them, often in ways that are pracitcal (learning patterns and spatial relationships, e.g.). Finally, remember that what often happens at schools with poor test scores is faux teaching: you don’t teach “math” so much as you teach “math testing.” Some of what you teach is actual math, but a lot of it is teaching kids what to do when they encounter a multiple choice test. Ok - we’ll have to disagree on this one then. If I have to choose a well rounded student who can’t do math, or a person who is proficient at math and isn’t exposed to those other things like art and music, I’m still choosing the math person. And really, how well rounded can you be without being able to demonstrate proficiency in math, reading, and science? I think being proficient at the basics that are tested is a perquisite for developing in the other areas. > [@](#): > > Bad data is worse than no data. If my kids, instead of taking that computerized test, had sat down with me to explain their mathematical thinking, I would have learned so much more about them than I learned from having them take this test. The fact that it was nationally normed, completely standardized, is irrelevant if I’m trying to find useful data. But you know that’s not feasible with large volumes of kids. Administrators are not going to be able to sit down with individual students so they can explain their thinking to demonstrate proficiency. The way they do this is through testing. Do you feel similarly about the SAT? Why? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/62 "2015-08-21T22:39:54Z")
When students can’t do math, we have citizens who can’t balance their checkbook or get a good deal on a car loan. When students aren’t allowed to study the arts, we have higher dropout rates, and we have citizens who don’t graduate, can’t balance their checkbook or get a good deal on a car loan, and can’t get a job. > [@](#): > > In several national studies over the past decade, students at risk of dropping out cite participation in the arts as their reason for staying in school.1 Research has also shown that arts education has had a measurable impact on at-risk youth in deterring delinquent behavior and truancy problems while also increasing overall academic performance.2 Despite these known benefits, as the findings of this report confirm, New York City public school students at schools with the lowest graduation rates have the least access to instruction in the arts. > Analyzing data from more than 200 New York City schools over a two-year period, this report shows that schools in the top third in graduation rates offered their students the most access to arts education and the most resources that support arts education.3 Schools in the bottom third in graduation rates consistently offer the least access and fewest resources. This pattern held true for nine key indicators that convey a school’s commitment to arts education. The findings are summarized below. [http://72.167.227.108/arts-education-report/executive\_summary](http://72.167.227.108/arts-education-report/executive_summary) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/63 "2015-08-21T23:56:23Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I have a fourth grader and a fifth grader who, I think, take standardized tests every year with no stress or drama. Know why? Because as their parents, we approach the tests with no stress and no drama. “Oh, your TCAPs are next week? Well, that’s no big deal. You’ll do fine. Just do your best.” When the scores come back, we give them about as much consideration as their art homework. “Oh, a 92 percentile? Great job honey. Do you have any spelling words we need to go over?” > > No big deal for us or them, yet there is value in knowing that they are (or are not) performing at the expected grade level and that our school is meeting state targets. > > If the kids are throwing up on their tests, it’s not the test’s fault. It’s the adults in their life who are stressing them out. Ah but your children are obviously privileged. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/64 "2015-08-22T00:20:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’re right, that’s a bad analogy 🙂 It’s not that bad actually. But this assumes equal value between the different vitamins, in that sacrificing one to promote another would have a neutral or detrimental effect. My position is that sacrificing some things like how to write a research paper, or band, or some other item that does not have as much value as the core items that are being tested, is on balance a net positive. Again, though, remember that ultimately what’s tested is **ability to pass a math test**. There’s a minor difference between that and math ability–but there’s a major industry in testing materials and curricula built into that difference. Would you sacrifice knowing how to write a research paper in order to get students who know how to pass a math test? I genuinely don’t think that’s a good trade. > [@](#): > > Ok - we’ll have to disagree on this one then. If I have to choose a well rounded student who can’t do math, or a person who is proficient at math and isn’t exposed to those other things like art and music, I’m still choosing the math person. And really, how well rounded can you be without being able to demonstrate proficiency in math, reading, and science? I think being proficient at the basics that are tested is a perquisite for developing in the other areas. I don’t think that’s a reasonable way to frame the issue. As long as we’ve got these tests, though, that’s how it’ll get framed: the solution to our educational woes will appear to be finding a way to get kids to score highly on standardized tests. And that’s a terrible solution. (Incidentally, our educational woes tend to be highly exaggerated. As a nation, we fucking rock international tests. Peculiarities in who’s tested in the US compared to other nations skew results. That said, I still think we have plenty of room for educational growth–but the testing industry stands in the way of that growth). > [@](#): > > But you know that’s not feasible with large volumes of kids. Administrators are not going to be able to sit down with individual students so they can explain their thinking to demonstrate proficiency. The way they do this is through testing. > > Do you feel similarly about the SAT? Why? I don’t know enough about the SAT to have an informed opinion on it. I hope that doesn’t come across as a dodge; I’d rather not opine on something if I don’t know enough to opine on it. And yes, Admins can’t sit down with individual kids. But if a test is a poor source of data, they may as well be reading kids’ astrological charts. It’s akin to a “God of the gaps” situation. It’s much better, when there’s something you don’t have the means to know about, to admit you don’t know about it, than it is to come up with a spurious source of certainty on the subject. Standardized tests offer a sense of certainty, but it’s spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/65 "2015-08-22T00:43:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > (Incidentally, our educational woes tend to be highly exaggerated. As a nation, we fucking rock international tests. cite? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, remember that ultimately what’s tested is ability to pass a math test. There’s a minor difference between that and math ability–but there’s a major industry in testing materials and curricula built into that difference. Would you sacrifice knowing how to write a research paper in order to get students who know how to pass a math test? > > I genuinely don’t think that’s a good trade. you actually think the tests are designed to challenge students? Seriously? They’re set to a low bar of achievement and represent the barest of minimums. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/66 "2015-08-22T00:48:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > cite? [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/01/15/u-s-scores-on-international-test-lowered-by-sampling-error-report/) > [@](#): > > You actually think the tests are designed to challenge students? Seriously? They’re set to a low bar of achievement and represent the barest of minimums. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/67 "2015-08-22T01:17:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/01/15/u-s-scores-on-international-test-lowered-by-sampling-error-report/) Did you even read the cite? According to the article If we adjust for whatever bit of stupid improves the numbers we’re 10th in math. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cite? The standardized test to pass high school is based on 10th grade proficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/68 "2015-08-22T02:33:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Did you even read the cite? According to the article If we adjust for whatever bit of stupid improves the numbers we’re 10th in math. And fourth in… Those are pretty good numbers, given that the tests in question cover 70 countries. Now, we’re not number 1, so perhaps I should have said that “we have plenty of room for educational growth”–or perhaps you should have just not cut off the post you quoted before I said that part. > [@](#): > > The standardized test to pass high school is based on 10th grade proficiency. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/69 "2015-08-22T05:19:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, remember that ultimately what’s tested is **ability to pass a math test**. There’s a minor difference between that and math ability–but there’s a major industry in testing materials and curricula built into that difference. Would you sacrifice knowing how to write a research paper in order to get students who know how to pass a math test? > > I genuinely don’t think that’s a good trade. Yes, ability to pass the test which ostensibly is designed to measure proficiency. At a minimum passing the tests demonstrates ability to pass the test (reflexive property!) and IMO, would have a high correlation with actual proficiency. If we line up all the things that can’t be tested for, like writing a research paper, art, etc. and weigh those against the things that can be tested for - I think proficiency in the areas of the test outweighs the other areas. Those items that can be tested for should be a minimum baseline. Once those perquisites are satisfied, then the other material can be focused on. I’m talking, reading, writing, math. Walking before running. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that’s a reasonable way to frame the issue. As long as we’ve got these tests, though, that’s how it’ll get framed: the solution to our educational woes will appear to be finding a way to get kids to score highly on standardized tests. And that’s a terrible solution. Hmm…I think that’s a accurate way to frame the position I’m taking. And I don’t think testing is a solution. It’s a weigh to calibrate, measure, and analyze. If 3/4 of the kids at Normandy High School can’t pass their grade level tests, that’s a problem. If 2/3 of those students go on to graduate highschool without being able to pass grade level tests, isn’t that a problem? How would that be measured? What basis would a school like Normandy lose its accreditation? (I pick Normandy because I just listened to a podcast of This American Life that talked about it). > [@](#): > > I don’t know enough about the SAT to have an informed opinion on it. I hope that doesn’t come across as a dodge; I’d rather not opine on something if I don’t know enough to opine on it. Well…I’m not an expert on it. I did take it though. It’s a standardized test, several hours, multiple sections, all multiple choice. Lots of analogy questions. Lots of math questions. In the end, you get a score, I think there is a weighting that penalizes wrong answers more than non-answers so guessing is discouraged, however based on the weighting if you can eliminate some choices then guessing is better than a non-answer. In the end, the SAT is weighed heavily in college admissions. So schools across the country, use SAT scores, among other measures, to determine whether to accept or reject. Of course, they also take into account lots of other things, like the quality of the school itself I believe. With a poor SAT score, I would expect the chances of being accepted into a top tier school are poor. So here we have a widely accepted measure that has a huge impact, and is a standardized test. And there is no claim of certainty. But data in large volumes across the country is rich with information. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cite? In CA, we have the [California High School Exit Exam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High_School_Exit_Exam). All students in CA must pass in order to receive a diploma. From the wiki: > [@](#): > > The CAHSEE is divided into two main sections: English-language arts (ELA) and mathematics.[1] > > The English section includes about 80 multiple-choice questions and requires students to write one or two multi-paragraph essays.[6] > > The essay portion provides a question that will prompt the student to write a persuasive essay, a business letter, a biography, a reaction to literature, or an analysis on the subject of the question. For example, in 2002, one group of students was asked to write an essay that persuaded people not to leave trash on the school grounds. Essay questions change with each test date. The essay portion is scaled out of one to four (with zeros given in special cases, such as for off-topic or non-English responses). > > The mathematics section consists of about 90 multiple choice questions.[7] > > The **English section tests students at a 10th-grade level** , and requires a score of 60% to pass; **the mathematics section tests students at an 8th-grade level,** and requires a score of 55% to pass.[2] This should be easy for a 12th grader to demonstrate proficiency by passing. There are several opportunities to take the exam and pass. 8th grade math is…I think Algebra I? It’s of course, state by state so I don’t know how other states do it. The grade level tests in CA recently changed so I don’t know the specifics of those either. They used to be called STAR tests, but I think they changed it. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/70 "2015-08-22T11:20:03Z")
I think that tests are not always a bad thing, just misunderstood. For example, here in Aus, one state has added an extra year of schooling at the start, to match the other states. Because their students consistantly scored one year behind, all the way through the final year of high school. Which is the kind of thing you can see on nation-wide standardized tests. And you can think anything you want about formal schooling, but I think that’s a convincing argument that formal schooling has an effect not matched by simply leaving the kids in day care. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/71 "2015-08-22T14:36:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And fourth in… > > Those are pretty good numbers, given that the tests in question cover 70 countries. Now, we’re not number 1, so perhaps I should have said that “we have plenty of room for educational growth”–or perhaps you should have just not cut off the post you quoted before I said that part. “plenty of room for educational growth”… WOW. can’t even admit you’re wrong. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cite? Are you living under a rock? You’re discussing a topic and you don’t know the HS tests are set to the 10th grade as the highest level of achievement? Do I have to cite air has oxygen in it? It’s now common for entry level jobs to include testing on the most basic of skills. The high school diploma is no longer considered a reliable certificate of achievement. When I was between real jobs I worked at a factory and they gave a basic math test as part of the screening. The HR person seemed surprised that I got every question right. REALLY? It was 3rd grade math. She told me the person ahead of me missed almost every question. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/72 "2015-08-22T14:42:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you living under a rock? You’re discussing a topic and you don’t know the HS tests are set to the 10th grade as the highest level of achievement? Yes. That is not common knowledge. If I wrote it in a paper, I’d damn well have to cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/73 "2015-08-22T15:01:54Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes. That is not common knowledge. If I wrote it in a paper, I’d damn well have to cite it. That’s just sad. I don’t have kids and I knew that just from normal awareness of the world around me. It’s not like expecting someone to know the atomic number of aluminum. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/74 "2015-08-22T15:02:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s just sad. I don’t have kids and I knew that just from normal awareness of the world around me. It’s not like expecting someone to know the atomic number of aluminum. Then it should be pretty easy for you to find a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/75 "2015-08-22T15:23:36Z")
I offered a cite in post 69. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/76 "2015-08-22T16:02:13Z")
Putting aside the larger debate, why is it assumed that passing these tests does not demonstrate proficiency? Why do we assume that they can be gamed in such a way that a student can pass the standardized test, yet still not understand the subject matter? If that assumption is true, then the test needs redesigned, not just eliminating testing all together. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/77 "2015-08-22T16:19:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I offered a cite in post 69. What level of scholastic achievement do you think is required to understand that? 11th grade? Bachelors degree? I was just going to sit back and count the number of responses it took before someone pointed it out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/78 "2015-08-22T16:22:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Putting aside the larger debate, why is it assumed that passing these tests does not demonstrate proficiency? Why do we assume that they can be gamed in such a way that a student can pass the standardized test, yet still not understand the subject matter? > > If that assumption is true, then the test needs redesigned, not just eliminating testing all together. You can cheat on any test. News at 11. [Teachers have gone to jail over it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/us/atlanta-school-workers-sentenced-in-test-score-cheating-case.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/79 "2015-08-23T00:22:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > “plenty of room for educational growth”… WOW. can’t even admit you’re wrong. I’m not sure whether you think you’re making a point here. > [@](#): > > Are you living under a rock? You’re discussing a topic and you don’t know the HS tests are set to the 10th grade as the highest level of achievement? Do I have to cite air has oxygen in it? The cite that Bone, unlike you, provided is for California. While the thread initially talked about NY tests, I was unaware that you were limiting your discussion to California. The overall discussion has moved on to a discussion of US tests in general. I’ll assume you forgot to clarify, and we can move on. > [@](#): > > It’s now common for entry level jobs to include testing on the most basic of skills. The high school diploma is no longer considered a reliable certificate of achievement. > > When I was between real jobs I worked at a factory and they gave a basic math test as part of the screening. The HR person seemed surprised that I got every question right. REALLY? It was 3rd grade math. She told me the person ahead of me missed almost every question. And your claim is that this is substantively different from 50 years ago or something? What does “no longer” mean? It’s true, of course, that the modern economy is an information economy and not a manufacturing economy, and that more jobs require expertise granted through schools than was once true. That, however, is not a reflection on the state of education. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2015, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047/80 "2015-08-23T06:54:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The cite that Bone, unlike you, provided is for California. While the thread initially talked about NY tests, I was unaware that you were limiting your discussion to California. The overall discussion has moved on to a discussion of US tests in general. I’ll assume you forgot to clarify, and we can move on. Granted - I am from CA so I am most familiar with CA. Just for curiosity, I took a look at some other states. [Florida has the FCAT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Comprehensive_Assessment_Test) which is also based on the 10th grade level (no difference noted between subjects: > [@](#): > > In addition to the third grade requirement, public school students in Florida must also pass the tenth grade FCAT, not only in reading, but also in mathematics, in order to be eligible to receive a high school diploma. Grade 3 and graduation are the only two instances in which federal or state statute require passage of the FCAT; it is given at the other grades for the intention of providing diagnostic information, both on students and schools. However, many counties in the state have adopted other promotional requirements tied to the FCAT, but these are at the discretion of each individual county school board. [For Texas, they have the STARR exams](http://www.txetests.com/FAQS/FAQ.asp?ID=22&p=2&c=6). I can’t tell what grade level the tests are geared towards, but it looks like a mix of several grades, from 7th to 11th maybe? > [@](#): > > In general, students must pass (meet or exceed Level II: Satisfactory Academic Performance) the five STAAR EOC assessments—Algebra I, English I, English II, biology, and U.S. history—in order to earn a high school diploma from a Texas public or charter school as required in TEC §39.025. For NY, they have[the Regents Exam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_Examinations). It looks like most tests are done at grade 10 or before, with exceptions for Reading, English which are done in 11th grade. > [@](#): > > Regents Competency High School tests, or simply RCT’s,[23] are exit exams given to identified special education students with Individualized Education Programs or students with a 504 plan seeking a high school diploma but cannot pass the standard Regents exams. Like the Regents Examinations, the RCT is provided and overseen by NYSED, and is designed and administered under the authority of the Board of Regents. > > Most RCT’s can be taken before a student takes the corresponding Regents exam. The RCT’s are available for students until they graduate or when they turn 21. If the student still cannot pass all of the RCT exams, an Individualized Education Program Diploma (IEP Diploma) is awarded instead. The IEP Diploma is not the equivalent to a high school diploma, and rather is a certificate given to students who complete the twelfth grade but do not pass the standards based testing. The IEP Diploma is intended only for students with severe cognitive disabilities.[24] > > Ninth grade > Students take the Math and Science RCT in June. This is done in case the students fail the Math and Living Environment Regents or Earth Science Regents which can be taken in 9th or 10th grade. Some students, however, can take Regents in 8th grade. > Tenth grade > Students take the Math and the Living Environment Regents or the Earth Science Regents in June. Students also take the Global History and Geography exam. Students can take the Global RCT if they failed the Global Regents. > Eleventh grade > Students take the Reading RCT in January. In June, students take the English and U.S. History Regents. Students can take the U.S. History RCT if they failed the U.S. History Regents. > Twelfth grade > Students take the Writing RCT in January if they have failed the English Regents. That’s CA, Florida, Texas, and NY. I’m kind of tired so I’m not looking up any more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twenty-percent-of-new-york-students-opt-out-of-high-stakes-testing/728047.md?page=5)