# Twilight: biggest Mary Sue ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912 "2008-11-15T22:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/41 "2008-11-16T18:37:08Z")
I haven’t read these books, but I want to say this: these are fantasies. I am very leery of saying such books are “bad” for teens (or kids, depending on the book–a book like Twilight wouldn’t appeal to your average second grader.) Who says Bella is or has to be a role model for girls or women? Why is Edward supposed to be anything but what he is written to be? Now, if the books are poorly written, that’s different. But I sense a moralizing strain here that bothers me. There probably are teens unstable enough out there to pick their marital partners based on fiction, but surely they aren’t many? I have no taste for vampire fic\*–Anne Rice leaves me cold (and her books were over the top, no?). It sounds to me like Meyers is over the top as well. I don’t deny that I’m a bit disturbed by the nastiness referred to here re women (and the whole Wuthering Heights thing makes no sense–Heathcliffe was an abusive shit), but it’s FICTION. Not a guide on how to live your life. So, I’m a bit 😕 as to the vehemence here. And the more disapproval is shown, the more the teens will cling to and elevate this type of thing, no? \*I had to read **Blood and Chocolate** for my YA fic class in library school-excellent book. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/42 "2008-11-16T18:42:53Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > …most seem to go for the “brooding emo vampire who is so so tragically beautiful and romantic and not evil at all and doesn’t kill anyone except maybe really bad people” thing. Bleh. I HATE that, not just because it’s sappy but because there’s no real reason to make such a character a vampire in the first place. He could just as easily be an aspiring musician who the heroine’s parents think is a bum.. I think I’ll start a series of vampire books where the vampires organize themselves into flag football teams, enjoy bluegrass music, go to the movies and enjoy working on their cars. And occasionally drink blood, just so you know they’re vampires. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/43 "2008-11-16T18:47:05Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Who says Bella is or has to be a role model for girls or women? Why is Edward supposed to be anything but what he is written to be? No one “says” she’s a role model-- the girls have taken her as their stand-in in what they believe is Perfect Love. They envy and hate her because she has their beloved Edward, and the idealize him as the Perfect Man. Well, I don’t know about you, but I find it troubling that so many teenage girls think that the perfect man would stalk them, control them, and that they would feel inferior and unworthy of him, and lose themselves so much in a relationship that they become suicidal if he breaks up with them. > [@](#): > > Now, if the books are poorly written, that’s different. But I sense a moralizing strain here that bothers me. There probably are teens unstable enough out there to pick their marital partners based on fiction, but surely they aren’t many? I don’t think it causes teenage girls to become unhealthy. I think it brings to the fore the unhealthiness and the distorted ideas of love that some girls hold. In that sense, it provides a way to talk about these things with girls who feel this way. > [@](#): > > I’m a bit 😕 as to the vehemence here. And the more disapproval is shown, the more the teens will cling to and elevate this type of thing, no? Several things I take issue with in this statement. First, don’t you think you should read the books before you judge the opinions of people who have read them? Perhaps our vehemence is warranted. You won’t know until you read them. Second, venting our opinions here on the Straight Dope is hardly heaping disapproval on the heads of teen fans. Third, yes, when I discuss these books with my students, I try to offer them some perspective on the Edward/Bella relationship. Why? Because the book offers NONE. Their relationship is shown as ideal, romantic, perfect, and wonderful. There is no sense that one gets from within the book that there is something sick going on there and maybe it isn’t good. So it behooves adults to engage kids in conversations about the books so that they can examine it and draw their own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/44 "2008-11-16T18:52:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I got sick of contemporary vampire fiction more than a decade ago. It’s played out. Maybe someone out there has some original idea for a new take on vampires, but I very much doubt it. _Vampire$_ by John Steakley has an interesting approach to the genre. It definitely has its own set of problems as a work of literature, but at least it ain’t emo. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/45 "2008-11-16T18:58:47Z")
> [@Ro\_Carter](#): > > Biggest Mary Sue I have ever encountered was actually a male version (Gary Stu?). Clive Cussler’s Dirk Pitt is so very clearly Cussler’s mental picture of himself. If we’re getting into male versions, Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan has Dirk Pitt beat in the shade. Pitt is a ridiculous character, but Ryan actually became the goddamned President of the United States, is KNIGHTED, and he’s so obviously a Clancy fantasy version of Clancy himself it’s almost painful. Irish-American Catholic? Check. Failed military career? Check. CIA analyst? Check? Conservative? Check. DC-area resident and Orioles fan? Check. ---
**Author:** ![Ducktail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@Ducktail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ducktail)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/46 "2008-11-16T19:00:18Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think I’ll start a series of vampire books where the vampires organize themselves into flag football teams, enjoy bluegrass music, go to the movies and enjoy working on their cars. And occasionally drink blood, just so you know they’re vampires. …would you really? Please? And soon? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/47 "2008-11-16T19:07:40Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > She is enjoying them, but she is quite clear that the reason that they are popular is that they are tugging on the heartstrings of every female out there. > > Thoughts on this theory? I haven’t read the books, but I think that’s true of about 70% of fiction. The other 30% tugs on the testosterone strings of men. And I’m not really sure why that’s a bad thing. I’m also more than a little tickled that this OP was written by a poster named **Tristan** , as [Tristan and Iseult](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult) is probably one of the most heart-wrenchingly Mary Sue and Gary Stu tragic romances ever told! I’m sure Bella could only hope to rise to the angst of poor Iseult! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/48 "2008-11-16T19:25:16Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > No one “says” she’s a role model-- the girls have taken her as their stand-in in what they believe is Perfect Love. They envy and hate her because she has their beloved Edward, and the idealize him as the Perfect Man. Well, I don’t know about you, but I find it troubling that so many teenage girls think that the perfect man would stalk them, control them, and that they would feel inferior and unworthy of him, and lose themselves so much in a relationship that they become suicidal if he breaks up with them. And younger kids have taken Harry Potter et al to be ideals–but some of them prefer Draco or even Voldemort. It’s harmless, unless there already exists some instability–and no author should have to write with that remote possibility in mind. Look at Harlequin Romances for older teens and women–in them, the man is usually remote and/ or the woman plain and they are thrown together most implausibly and yet fall into True Love. It’s fantasy. Women and girls tend to like “bad boys” in fiction. Look at “Beauty and the Beast”–a “flawed” monster “cured” by the love of a good woman. No fairy tale relates positive role models for healthy functional families. Hell, look at Ken–the ultimate nice guy and completely irrelevant to Barbie. Goosebumps is another example–I can’t stand those books and think they’re a waste of trees, but I doubt any child who read them went on to worship the occult or similar. I am NOT saying that concern isn’t warranted. I’m saying that judicious concern should be practiced. I think you’re doing that. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it causes teenage girls to become unhealthy. I think it brings to the fore the unhealthiness and the distorted ideas of love that some girls hold. In that sense, it provides a way to talk about these things with girls who feel this way. I’m glad to read the first sentence, but can’t completely agree with your second thought, but you are right–I need to read the books first. I was speaking on general principle, not in defense of these books in particular. But I do wholeheartedly agree that a book like this can provide a way to talk to girls (or boys) who might feel that way. > [@](#): > > Second, venting our opinions here on the Straight Dope is hardly heaping disapproval on the heads of teen fans. Third, yes, when I discuss these books with my students, I try to offer them some perspective on the Edward/Bella relationship. Why? Because the book offers NONE. Their relationship is shown as ideal, romantic, perfect, and wonderful. There is no sense that one gets from within the book that there is something sick going on there and maybe it isn’t good. So it behooves adults to engage kids in conversations about the books so that they can examine it and draw their own conclusions. These are all good things. I applaud you. But I don’t like to have books deemed too X for teens. That’s a slippery slope and not good long term. Better to have them read it and discuss (increasing their critical thinking skills) as you do. I was concerned that your feelings weren’t limited to the Dope. I’d rather the kids were allowed to read the books and then made to think about them, then for them to be denied the reading of them at all. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/49 "2008-11-16T19:58:40Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > \*I had to read **Blood and Chocolate** for my YA fic class in library school-excellent book. That’s good to hear. The movie’s running on Showtime this week. As for _Twilight_ being poorly written, I think it is. One thing I’ve noticed in bad YA fiction is repetition. The author doesn’t trust the reader to remember anything from one page to the next. Also, there’s a lot of telling rather than showing. Bella tells us she’s clumsy and then she trips on something. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/50 "2008-11-16T20:40:41Z")
I don’t know that Meyer really thinks that Edward is perfect. I can’t find the quote now, but IIRC she thought that Robert Pattinson nailed the character when he said this in an interview: > [@](#): > > “When you read the book,” says Pattinson, looking appropriately pallid and interesting even without makeup, “it’s like, ‘Edward Cullen was so beautiful I creamed myself.’ I mean, every line is like that. He’s the most ridiculous person who’s so amazing at everything. I think a lot of actors tried to play that aspect. I just couldn’t do that. And the more I read the script, the more I hated this guy, so that’s how I played him, as a manic-depressive who hates himself. Plus, he’s a 108-year-old virgin so he’s obviously got some issues there.” I don’t think Meyer is a particularly good author, but I do think she’s capable of writing a character who is seriously flawed, even though the narrator thinks he’s a perfect angel who sparkles. Edward clearly has problems seeing Bella realistically as well. But hey, True Love conquers all anyway. I did think one thing was funny–a while back some random person accused Meyer of being incredibly racist, based on Jacob **Black** s name and a couple of other things. Her thesis was pretty much that an author as ‘skilled’ as Meyer knows exactly what she’s doing, and she must have planted all these clues in there on purpose. (This requires ignoring the part where Jacob is portrayed as a good guy, not a bad guy, and also believing that Meyer is Tolstoy instead of Danielle Steel.) As Cleolinda says on that blog I linked to: > [@](#): > > The first thing I want to discuss is the fact that I cannot stop reading these books even though they fill me with feminist rage and horror. I can’t stop, y’all. The imprinting! The forced kissing! The STALKING, OH MY LORD, THE STALKING. More to the point, perhaps: if Bella Swan hadn’t met Edward, what was she planning to do with her life? I mean, what was she planning to do for a job? We’re not even told enough about her interests to have any idea what career path she could have taken. Novels of the nineteenth century: that is pretty much it. And guess what? They’re not hiring for those anymore. > > And yet… Twilight fills me with warm and fuzzy giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/51 "2008-11-16T21:35:47Z")
For the record, I think Twilight is stupid, poorly written, and romanticizes abusive relationships, but I don’t think teen girls should be prevented from reading it, except on an individual basis by their parents, and I admit there is some fun content. I know some people found the leads to have no chemistry, but I think Meyer has URST down pat. I may be alone, but I think sparkly vampires are kind of a nice change of pace. And as I said, the backstories were intriguing. It just needs to be edited down, and read with a skeptical eye, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/52 "2008-11-16T21:58:30Z")
Oh thank heaven for this thread. I totally agree that Bella is a total Mary Sue. I think your average romance novel herione is better rounded. Bella is smart, she is pretty, she cares about people. Every guy in school wants her to ask them to the dance. **What flaws does this girl actually have?** Oh wait, she’s clumsy. That makes her rounded :rolleyes: I have only read Twilight (and would not have even finished that if I hadn’t been stuck on a plane) but - yuck! Not only was the book badly written, it was _boring_. Who would have thought you could write a book about ravenous blood seekers trying to control themselves and make it boring? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/53 "2008-11-16T21:59:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Robin McKinley’s _Sunshine_ is different, and I really liked it: it’s set in a post-apocalyptic future, and it’s a rich, interesting world. Some people find the narrator’s voice annoying. I loved the world–it was unique and complex–and the vampires were sufficiently other-worldly and evil. There is, of course, a sympathetic vampire, but even he is pretty freaking alien. I have read and enjoyed some of Robin McKinley’s other novels, so if I come across this one I might consider breaking my usual moratorium on reading contemporary vampire lit. 😉 Thanks for the info. > [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > _Vampire$_ by John Steakley has an interesting approach to the genre. It definitely has its own set of problems as a work of literature, but at least it ain’t emo. I hadn’t heard of this book either, but it looks like it was originally published in 1991, before vampire fiction became mostly a bunch of soppy romances. Back in the '80s Whitley Streiber’s _The Hunger_ also managed to have some fresh ideas, although it’s also one of the worst books I’ve ever read. Although we’re told repeatedly that the main vampire character is of superhuman intelligence, she behaves like a total idiot. (The movie, which I will confess to owning, is something of a cult classic but is also pretty bad. It does feature a good performance by David Bowie AND a sex scene between Catherine Deneuve and Susan Sarandon, though.) > [@jsc1953](#): > > I think I’ll start a series of vampire books where the vampires organize themselves into flag football teams, enjoy bluegrass music, go to the movies and enjoy working on their cars. And occasionally drink blood, just so you know they’re vampires. Now THAT’S an original idea! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/54 "2008-11-16T22:03:07Z")
One of the things that hasn’t been mentioned yet that I think should be, compared to a lot of teen books, Twilight is better written and better plotted than the rest of the pack. It’s not great writing, but I’m taking a YA Services class right now and some of the other books we’ve had to read are absolutely dreadful. Like claw my eyes out bad. Twilight was at least enjoyable (and I do plan on reading the other three when the class is over). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/55 "2008-11-16T23:09:34Z")
Oh. So they’re Romance Novels for the junior high set, with pubescent vampires instead of Fabio. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/56 "2008-11-17T00:29:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I have read and enjoyed some of Robin McKinley’s other novels, so if I come across this one I might consider breaking my usual moratorium on reading contemporary vampire lit. 😉 Thanks for the info. > > I hadn’t heard of this book either, but it looks like it was originally published in 1991, before vampire fiction became mostly a bunch of soppy romances. It’s really very good, though it gets the same reaction as _Deerskin_–people love it or hate it (though not for the same reason) Her next book, _Dragonhaven_, does the same sort of revisioning of a fantasy cliche, this time the"my special dragon that loves me and only me and validates that I am more special than anyone so there" genre. They are a strong departure from the fairy tales/high fantasy she’s written for so long, but I am crazy about them. Of course, I’m really biased: I read _The Hero and the Crown_ more or less monthly from fifth to eighth grades. If you look closely, the cadence of my syntax is highly McKinnley-esque. ---
**Author:** ![ProudlyDefiant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@ProudlyDefiant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProudlyDefiant)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/57 "2008-11-17T01:37:12Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > One of the things that hasn’t been mentioned yet that I think should be, compared to a lot of teen books, Twilight is better written and better plotted than the rest of the pack. Oh no. YA Fiction, especially series fiction and the ghostwritten straight to paperback stuff, does have its extreme lows, but Twilight is strictly middle of the road. It’s not “better than the rest of the pack.” There is much much better plotted, better written YA fiction. There are a lot of hidden gems. Sorry; I have a bit of a love affair going with YA fiction- there is some supremely quality stuff written for that age group, even if it doesn’t get the marketing push Twilight got. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/58 "2008-11-17T01:44:44Z")
I had to look up the term “Mary Sue” to get exactly what you were talking about. When I read the Wiki-description: _The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the “Mary Sue” character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an “author’s pet”._ I thought, oh my God, it’s Ayla from the EarthChildren series. That said, Ivygirl is a huge fan, wants _Twilight_ stuff for Christmas, and is counting the hours until the movie comes out. And Og forbid a commercial for the movie comes out…you could go deaf from her squealing. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/59 "2008-11-17T01:50:44Z")
> [@ProudlyDefiant](#): > > Sorry; I have a bit of a love affair going with YA fiction- there is some supremely quality stuff written for that age group, even if it doesn’t get the marketing push Twilight got. I’d be interested in some recommendations, maybe in a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/60 "2008-11-17T01:56:45Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Oh noes! Those bastard filmmakers have cast a 17 year old actress to play a character who is 17 years old. The outrage! [/QUOTE] You misunderstand, no outrage was intended to be expressed. Just…me feeling old. So very old. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912.md?page=4)