# Twilight: biggest Mary Sue ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912 "2008-11-15T22:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/81 "2008-11-19T00:49:32Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I wanted to open a thread about Bella’s baby but had no idea how to title and spoiler it appropriately so… > > How many times has this cliche cropped up: the super-hybrid-magic-baby who gestates and grows up at an accelerated rate? The ones that come to mind immediately are V, The 4400, Angel, and Twilight. Any I’ve forgotten? The non-hiveminded, self created super-Borg named One from the Voyager episode _Drone_. A hybrid of Borg technology, human DNA and 29th century Federation technology. And he didn’t even need a woman; he made his own mechanical womb. ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/82 "2008-11-19T02:21:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The non-hiveminded, self created super-Borg named One from the Voyager episode _Drone_. A hybrid of Borg technology, human DNA and 29th century Federation technology. And he didn’t even need a woman; he made his own mechanical womb. And the TNG episode where Deanna gets pregnant and has the creepy Donny Osmond baby who ends up dying and.. uh.. turning into a little globe and flying out the ship’s wall, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/83 "2008-11-19T05:23:51Z")
> [@bobkitty](#): > > And the TNG episode where Deanna gets pregnant and has the creepy Donny Osmond baby who ends up dying and.. uh.. turning into a little globe and flying out the ship’s wall, right? Ah, yes, I forgot that one. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/84 "2008-11-19T16:44:20Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think I’ll start a series of vampire books where the vampires organize themselves into flag football teams, enjoy bluegrass music, go to the movies and enjoy working on their cars. And occasionally drink blood, just so you know they’re vampires. I would buy these books forty-three times. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/85 "2008-11-19T18:55:33Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think I’ll start a series of vampire books where the vampires organize themselves into flag football teams, enjoy bluegrass music, go to the movies and enjoy working on their cars. And occasionally drink blood, just so you know they’re vampires. Don’t forget Crossword Puzzles. Why are all vampire books so intense and stuff? I am trying to read Twilight because of the 13 year olds in my life who are all a-twitter over this ( I blame JK Rowling for ending the HP fangasm in 7 books and the delay of movie #6. How can we wankoff if we don’t have a movie or book every so often!!!) and I wanted to see what the fuss was all about. So far, there is nothing fuss-able about it one bit but I am not up to the BIG DEAL about going to SEATTLE!!!111!!! ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/86 "2008-11-19T18:56:05Z")
Is it true the movie sucks?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/87 "2008-11-19T18:56:37Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I have read every Twilight book and the other novel Meyer wrote, and I teach middle school, which is the prime audience for these books. Boys are reading them as well as girls, and they are wildly, Harry Potter-level popular. I despise them but will read every single one. They are the McDonald’s of literature-- bad for you but tasty. > > Why does everyone love them? It’s because they glorify romance and co-dependence and allow you to revel in the guilty, voyeuristic pleasure at watching a sickeningly cloying love affair unfold. In a way, it is a girl’s dream to have the most handsome, powerful, intelligent, enlightened, tragically sad and lonely boy in high school love you even though it’s killing him, even though his family and friends disapprove, even though it’s socially unacceptable. Edward would die for Bella, and she for him. Life is not worth living without each other. Each of the characters think they are bad, unworthy, only redeemed by their love–both such martyrs it’s vomit-inducing. Edward breaks into her house to watch her sleep, follows her around to eavesdrop on her friend’s thoughts, things that normally you’d think was creepy, but in this case, it’s just a sign of his undying devotion. It’s very much a love conquers all (including sense, reason, and healthy boundaries) theme. > > The other appealing element is that yes, Bella is a Mary Sue extraordinaire. She has two awesome guys fighting for her, who love her more than their own lives… even though she is plain, narcissistic, self-pitying, and completely unable to take care of herself. Gives hope to everyone if someone like her can win the love of two incredibly hot, powerful men. Thank you for a well written review on this is. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/88 "2008-11-19T19:02:20Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > So far, there is nothing fuss-able about it one bit but I am not up to the BIG DEAL about going to SEATTLE!!!111!!! Seattle is like Nirvana (the concept, not the band) to teenagers. I have no idea why, but that was even the deal when I was a kid. (Actually, it made more sense then because Nirvana, the band, not the concept, was actually in Seattle and Changing the Face of Music when I was a teen.) As far as I can tell, it doesn’t even have the best coffee anymore, but it’s still teenage Utopic Dreamland. I guess it’s like the Haight-Ashbury for the Millennial Generation. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/89 "2008-11-19T19:18:33Z")
For all the complaints that Twilight’s story is horrible, I never see people bringing up the fact that Bella is a terrible unreliable narrator. “Edward is so beautiful it hurts to look at him” could be typical teenage exaggeration or it could be that Edward is using his subtle vampire hypnosis to make Bella think it hurts to look directly at him. He doesn’t want to be noticed after all and none of the other non-vampire characters ever mention anything about his looks. He’s just the weird kid. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/90 "2008-11-19T19:23:05Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Why are all vampire books so intense and stuff? Frustrating, isn’t it. Try some Christopher Moore – _Bloodsucking Fiends_ especially. I think there’s a sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/91 "2008-11-19T19:50:33Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Frustrating, isn’t it. Try some Christopher Moore – _Bloodsucking Fiends_ especially. I think there’s a sequel. Oooooooh! Consider it added to my list of books to read. OT, **Auntie Pam** I think it was you who also read a book that I read, (Which is where I got the title from and decided to read it.) and I cannot for the life of me remember what the hell the title was. Set in the Guerney Isles post WW2 ish. Guy had an interesting name like Silas or Gideon. Very pastoral read. **WHAT was the title?** end my misery, obi wan. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/92 "2008-11-19T20:03:01Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Seattle is like Nirvana (the concept, not the band) to teenagers. I have no idea why, but that was even the deal when I was a kid. (Actually, it made more sense then because Nirvana, the band, not the concept, was actually in Seattle and Changing the Face of Music when I was a teen.) As far as I can tell, it doesn’t even have the best coffee anymore, but it’s still teenage Utopic Dreamland. > > I guess it’s like the Haight-Ashbury for the Millennial Generation. Oh, is THAT why? I didn’t get it either. It would have made sense if it was 1992, but I didn’t know that Seattle is still where teens want to be. It makes me think of Microsoft and coffee, and well, those two things just don’t say teen paradise to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/93 "2008-11-19T20:08:08Z")
I live in Seattle, and we’d very much like not to suffer an influx of emo teens, thank you very much. Please tell them that this is the land of banana slugs and mediocre pizza, sometimes because it has banana slugs on it. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/94 "2008-11-19T20:14:23Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Frustrating, isn’t it. Try some Christopher Moore – _Bloodsucking Fiends_ especially. I think there’s a sequel. Yes, it’s called _You Suck!_, and the first line is, IIRC, “You turned me into a vampire - you suck!” Not pertinent to this thread, but Moore’s _The Stupidest Angel_ is great too. RE: Bella as unreliable narrator, this is one of the things that seemed like a huge missed opportunity to me. Just give us one or two hints that Bella is being a silly little hormonal girl, and the author knows it, and this book is entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/95 "2008-11-19T20:25:16Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > RE: Bella as unreliable narrator, this is one of the things that seemed like a huge missed opportunity to me. Just give us one or two hints that Bella is being a silly little hormonal girl, and the author knows it, and this book is entirely different. To me, the repeated refrain of “He’s so beautiful that if this were an erotica novel I’d be pleasuring myself in the middle of Biology class” was the author winking at the unreliable narrator. That is cliched teenage girl in a bottle right there. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/96 "2008-11-19T20:26:53Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Yes, it’s called _You Suck!_, and the first line is, IIRC, “You turned me into a vampire - you suck!” Not pertinent to this thread, but Moore’s _The Stupidest Angel_ is great too. > > RE: Bella as unreliable narrator, this is one of the things that seemed like a huge missed opportunity to me. Just give us one or two hints that Bella is being a silly little hormonal girl, and the author knows it, and this book is entirely different. Continuing the hijack, have you ever read _Lamb_? It’s probably one of my all-time favorite books. It’s kind of a parody of the life & times of Jesus Christ with his friend, Biff. Back to Bella: I really wish they’d stop portraying her as some idiot who couldn’t tie her own shoes without help. That clutziness thing really, really bothers me. Bella’s propensity to fall down or bump into things borders on a neurological disorder. I think her problems with grace are the things they check for when I go in for my annual seizure checkup. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/97 "2008-11-19T21:50:08Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > For all the complaints that Twilight’s story is horrible, I never see people bringing up the fact that Bella is a terrible unreliable narrator. She is with regard to herself. She always thinks of herself as ugly and unappealing despite manifest evidence to the contrary. She and Edward also have a “karmic” draw to each other, so they are both unreliable wrt each other. Edward thinks she’s more beautiful than she is too. They have a pheremonal thing with each other where they smell really good, and I think that also affects their perceptions of each other. > [@](#): > > “Edward is so beautiful it hurts to look at him” could be typical teenage exaggeration or it could be that Edward is using his subtle vampire hypnosis to make Bella think it hurts to look directly at him. He doesn’t want to be noticed after all and none of the other non-vampire characters ever mention anything about his looks. He’s just the weird kid. This is not accurate. First of all, all vampires are incredibly attractive. Bella in fact is transformed into the most beautiful, perfect version of herself in the 4th book, which would reinforce the idea that becoming a vampire makes you more beautiful. Also, the other characters do notice that Edward is beautiful. Angela in particular had a huge crush on Edward and thinks nasty thoughts about Bella when she starts hanging out with Edward. So, Edward is notably and noticeably attractive, and other characters do mention it. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/98 "2008-11-19T21:57:23Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Well I totally agree with that. I find them to be full of creepy and unhealthy messages about women. Many of my friends adore them, though, even some of the tough ones who you would think would hate them. 😕 the author of the books is Mormon ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/99 "2008-11-19T22:04:54Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This is not accurate. First of all, all vampires are incredibly attractive. Bella in fact is transformed into the most beautiful, perfect version of herself in the 4th book, which would reinforce the idea that becoming a vampire makes you more beautiful. Also, the other characters do notice that Edward is beautiful. Angela in particular had a huge crush on Edward and thinks nasty thoughts about Bella when she starts hanging out with Edward. So, Edward is notably and noticeably attractive, and other characters do mention it. I’ve only read the first book, so you’ll forgive me if later books change this up, but while the vampires are considered beautiful by the population at large, Bella’s reaction to Edward seems wholly unique. I also still think there’s something to the who “subtle hypnosis” fanwank. Basically, that’s it, the book seems to get a badrap for some plot points when they’re all fanwanked away much simpler than the plot holes in some other geek fandoms. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912/100 "2008-11-19T22:16:29Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > OT, **Auntie Pam** I think it was you who also read a book that I read, (Which is where I got the title from and decided to read it.) and I cannot for the life of me remember what the hell the title was. Set in the Guerney Isles post WW2 ish. Guy had an interesting name like Silas or Gideon. Very pastoral read. **WHAT was the title?** end my misery, obi wan. _The Book of Ebenezer le Page_ – wasn’t it something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-biggest-mary-sue-ever/472912.md?page=6)