# Twilight - book or movies, can someone explain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 6, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303 "2011-12-06T21:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/41 "2011-12-08T12:35:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Am I being whooshed, or are you actually arguing that there are no books out there with protagonists who are incompetent, unpopular, or unsuccessful? I’m saying that people shouting “Mary Sue!” over everything is a little overblown as a lot of protagonists are portrayed as being so much better than the people around them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/42 "2011-12-08T13:21:26Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’m saying that people shouting “Mary Sue!” over everything is a little overblown as a lot of protagonists are portrayed as being so much better than the people around them. It’s a little more than that. No one is claiming, for example, that James Bond is a Mary Sue character despite being better than everyone around him. At the beginning of the story the character is miserable, overlooked, bullied and either has no friends or has one or two misfit friends. He or she then discovers that s/he is special in some way, and it becomes apparent that not only is s/he way better than all the people who had been ignoring or bullying him/her but s/he is way better than all the other people with similar powers (because what’s the point of moving to a different social group and being ignored/picked on there?). The character is a “natural” at doing whatever special things the special people do, which means that tedious things like training and practice aren’t required (apart from a few initial comical errors). S/he eventually does something really awesome that saves everyone and they all love him or her. So to sum up: you (the reader) are a miserable pre-teen but now you can imagine that any moment someone will come and tell you that you are Awesome personified and that you can turn those bullies into cockroaches or make that cute girl swoon, and you won’t have to worry about working at it or failing because you are Awesome. See: Bella Swan, Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, The Princess Diaries (sort of), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/43 "2011-12-08T14:25:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s a little more than that. No one is claiming, for example, that James Bond is a Mary Sue character despite being better than everyone around him. Considering Ian Fleming’s real-life background in espionage, James Bond pretty much qualifies as a Mary Sue version of the secret agent Fleming wanted to be. > [@](#): > > At the beginning of the story the character is miserable, overlooked, bullied and either has no friends or has one or two misfit friends. That said, this doesn’t describe Bella in the first Twilight story. She’s portrayed as smart, beautiful, and well liked. Her miserableness is only due to the fact that she had to move 3000 miles away to live with a father she barely knows. I’ve said it before, but for all the hate the Twilight series gets, it’s leagues better than the majority of teen fiction that no one in the adult world knows about because the rest of it hasn’t reached phenomenon levels. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/44 "2011-12-08T14:55:49Z")
I’ll politely disagree with Justin Bailey. I’ve read lots of YA literature lately, partly because of my work, and LOTS of it is much much better than Twilight. don’t have time now to give examples, but I’ll stand by this statement. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/45 "2011-12-08T15:48:39Z")
I gave some thought as to why I feel like Bella is a Mary Sue and other characters like Luke Skywalker, Frodo and Harry Potter are not and I came up with this: Although Luke has his special Midi-chlorians levels, you see him having to work hard to develop his skills. Harry Potter, same thing… born into amazing raw talent but you see him work at it and he is not great at everything. Frodo isn’t particularly special, he was just the unlucky SOB who had the ring at the time - he can resist the siren call of the One Ring but then again most Hobbits can. Bella does nothing at all to gain or earn her specialness. One of the most obvious Gary Stu characters is the Robert Langdon character in the Dan Brown books. Described as a middle of the road dude in both looks, brains and talent he somehow gets numerous women who are crazy hot and brilliant, like a microbiologist/yoga instructor who is half his age. Suuuure… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/46 "2011-12-08T16:12:54Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’m saying that people shouting “Mary Sue!” over everything is a little overblown as a lot of protagonists are portrayed as being so much better than the people around them. Dude, the character’s name is “Bella Swan.” That alone is beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence of “this character is a paper-thin wish-fulfillment vehicle for the author, and for every girl who imagines she is an Ugly Duckling waiting for her moment to shine”. Bella Swan. Might as well be “Loveliness Youcouldbeher”. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/47 "2011-12-08T17:11:23Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > I’ll politely disagree with Justin Bailey. I’ve read lots of YA literature lately, partly because of my work, and LOTS of it is much much better than Twilight. don’t have time now to give examples, but I’ll stand by this statement. That’s the key. In the time since Twilight was published, a lot of good stuff has come out in YA fiction. But I took a YA literature class in grad school just after Breaking Dawn came out and the non-Twilight stuff used as “good examples of YA fiction” was just dreadful. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/48 "2011-12-08T17:51:33Z")
No, still politely disagreeing - LOTS of good YA and youth fiction was published BEFORE Twilight. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/49 "2011-12-09T00:40:12Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That’s the key. In the time since Twilight was published, a lot of good stuff has come out in YA fiction. But I took a YA literature class in grad school just after Breaking Dawn came out and the non-Twilight stuff used as “good examples of YA fiction” was just dreadful. I’m curious as to which specific “good examples of YA fiction” you consider worse than _Twilight_. There’s been plenty of YA dreck published over the years – when I was a teenager cheesy horror novels were popular with girls of the age that now read _Twilight_ – but I doubt the _Fear Street_ series is being recommended in library schools as an example of excellent fiction for teens. > [@Dr.Righteous](#): > > I gave some thought as to why I feel like Bella is a Mary Sue and other characters like Luke Skywalker, Frodo and Harry Potter are not and I came up with this: > > Although Luke has his special Midi-chlorians levels, you see him having to work hard to develop his skills. Harry Potter, same thing… born into amazing raw talent but you see him work at it and he is not great at everything. Frodo isn’t particularly special, he was just the unlucky SOB who had the ring at the time - he can resist the siren call of the One Ring but then again most Hobbits can. > > Bella does nothing at all to gain or earn her specialness. I’d probably feel better about the character if she had unearned powers of some sort, because then she’d at least be able to _do things_. Instead her special attributes are, like the character herself, totally useless. I mean, she smells unusually good to one guy. Big deal. That doesn’t balance out the fact that in _Twilight_ Bella literally cannot walk through a doorway without falling over, gets lost in the woods practically as soon as her house is out of sight, and stands around helplessly whenever there’s danger until Edward shows up to rescue her. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/50 "2011-12-09T05:53:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Instead her special attributes are, like the character herself, totally useless. Edward can’t read her mind, that’s one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/51 "2011-12-09T06:30:59Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Edward can’t read her mind, that’s one thing. Which is totally useless. Being immune to _enemy_ psionics is useful. Being immune to _offensive_ friendly psionics is useful, especially if the enemy doesn’t know you’re immune. Being immune to telepathy when the only telepath is an ally is less useful than no ability at all. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/52 "2011-12-09T14:01:45Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Which is totally useless. Being immune to _enemy_ psionics is useful. Being immune to _offensive_ friendly psionics is useful, especially if the enemy doesn’t know you’re immune. Being immune to telepathy when the only telepath is an ally is less useful than no ability at all. In the movies at least she’s immune to other vampire super powers (except prognostication). ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/53 "2011-12-09T16:45:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Which is totally useless. Being immune to _enemy_ psionics is useful. Being immune to _offensive_ friendly psionics is useful, especially if the enemy doesn’t know you’re immune. Being immune to telepathy when the only telepath is an ally is less useful than no ability at all. As **jackdavinci** explained, she’s immune to other vampire powers as well. Not all of them (Alice can see her future, for instance), but certainly ones besides Edward. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/54 "2011-12-09T17:09:45Z")
I don’t care what vampire powers Bella was or wasn’t immune to - I still found the first book (all I could struggle through) to be incredibly poorly written and just plsin dumb. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/55 "2011-12-09T17:45:56Z")
I’m not arguing that Twilight is great literature or anything, but there are far better reasons to attack it than what some of y’all are saying, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/56 "2011-12-09T17:52:42Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I’m not arguing that Twilight is great literature or anything, but there are far better reasons to attack it than what some of y’all are saying, that’s all. Agreed. Why doesn’t anyone attack Cory Doctorow’s Little Brother for being a horribly written piece of YA trash? The whole plot hinges on teenagers throwing away their Xboxes to exclusively play Bejeweled for crap’s sake! ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/57 "2011-12-09T19:35:40Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Edward can’t read her mind, that’s one thing. I know, and I’m counting that as an at best useless ability. It may actually be a handicap considering how often Edward has to save her, something he could presumably do more easily if he could check in on her directly rather than having to scan the minds of people around her. If, as **jackdavinci** , says Bella is also immune to the psychic powers of unfriendly vampires then _that_ is a useful ability, and one that I didn’t know about. This presumably came up in the later part of the first book (after I gave up) or in the sequels. My point was not really about the specifics of Bella’s special abilities though, but rather that she’s such a boring, passive heroine. Prior to _Twilight_ a strong contender for the title of worst YA novel I have ever read was E. Rose Sabin’s _A School for Sorcery_. At one point the heroine, who is faced with a difficult problem, sits down and makes list of every magical talent she’s aware of. Then she basically just reads through her list and finds that she can now do all these things. :smack: But as dumb as this is, the result is at least that the heroine then tackles the problem and helps other people. In contrast Bella seems to spend an awful lot of time playing damsel in distress. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/58 "2011-12-12T11:22:12Z")
Twilight is okay but I prefer [Emily and the Really Sexy Vampyre](http://www.paulandstorm.com/wha/emily-and-the-really-sexy-vampyre/), which is basically the same story only shorter. ---
**Author:** ![Hedda\_Rosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hedda_rosa/32/1204_2.png) [@Hedda\_Rosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hedda_Rosa)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303/59 "2011-12-12T14:34:52Z")
Twilight from Edwards POV. Not fanfic, actually written by the author. > **[Midnight Sun](https://stepheniemeyer.com/midnight-sun-2020/)** > > Midnight Sun Released 8/4/2020 AmazonPowellsIndie BoundBarnes and NobleWalmartTargetBooks a MillionBookshopIndigoApple BooksGoogle Play Dear friends and readers, First of all, I hope that you and y… I found it more interesting than the original book. Still not a great work of high literature, but more readable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twilight-book-or-movies-can-someone-explain/605303.md?page=2)