# Twin Peaks - The Return Parts 17 and 18 (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 3, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427 "2017-09-03T21:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/41 "2017-09-05T23:13:13Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > I thought it was a different actress, but it’s hard to tell. It looked like Lynch was avoiding showing her face clearly (she was always in shadow, out of focus, turned away from the camera, etc). It could have been Sheryl Lee and they obscured her face because she’s older now. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/42 "2017-09-05T23:22:38Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > … I don’t think Cooper necessarily screwed up the timeline with his attempt to save Laura past. Rather, I think that the Judy-entity subverted his efforts by snatching up Laura (when she disappeared in the woods while following Coop) and moving her, with a new name and false memories, to an illusory world (created by Judy). … The scene with Gordon discussing “Jow-day” at the top of the finale was surely so pointed as to lead us to believe that the entity did, in fact, kidnap Laura when Cooper was leading her in the woods, and install her (perhaps) as a greasy-spoon waitress in Odessa. Which may have been the life she led for 25 years. Or, perhaps, as you suggest, it was an illusory world instead of being a (real) alternate timeline. How all that fits in with Laura having been some sort of spirit of goodness sent to Earth, is difficult to fathom. The life Carrie had apparently been living doesn’t seem to relate to the Laura-origin as a golden orb generated by The Giant. For me, the failure to make some sort of link or at least reference to this in the finale, is an artistic problem for the series as a whole. (I’m not ruling out the possibility that it’s there and I simply didn’t see it, of course.) > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Kyle MacLachlan said today that there are no discussions currently about more Twin Peaks. > Honestly, I can accept episode 18 as a finale. He tried to save Laura, did save her from dying, but messed up the world. > It’s not a great ending, but it is an ending. And Bob did die(so to speak) in the previous episode, so that is resolved as well. That’s all true. But it’s difficult to keep from listing all the situations set up, yet not resolved, in those eighteen episodes. (And the message ‘life doesn’t contain tidy resolutions’ is surely too banal a cliché to have inspired Lynch to make the return to _Twin Peaks_.) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/43 "2017-09-05T23:24:17Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It could have been Sheryl Lee and they obscured her face because she’s older now. That’s what I thought we were seeing. The hair looked so obviously wig-ish. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/44 "2017-09-05T23:49:00Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > … > I don’t think Cooper necessarily screwed up the timeline with his attempt to save Laura past. Rather, I think that the Judy-entity subverted his efforts by snatching up Laura (when she disappeared in the woods while following Coop) and moving her, with a new name and false memories, to an illusory world (created by Judy). Laura/Carrie heard Leland’s voice—the real world leaking through the fake one—and realized who she really was. > … That could very well be, but you still might have a messed up timeline in the real world. Instead of a dead girl you have a missing girl. When Leland arrived at the railcar and didn’t find Laura he may have lost interest and left or he may have killed Ronette instead. In either case, Ronette never wandered dazedly across the state line so there would be no FBI involvement. Or she might have done so but now we have the FBI involved, and maybe even Cooper, but you have a different case, an assault and a missing person. That’s a big change with all kinds of potential repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/45 "2017-09-06T00:05:27Z")
I know it is unlikely, but I would love if Lynch-Frost would give one solid interview about the third season. I’m curious about the decisions they made. ---
**Author:** ![SuperNelson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@SuperNelson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNelson)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/46 "2017-09-06T02:47:38Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > I thought it was a different actress, but it’s hard to tell. It looked like Lynch was avoiding showing her face clearly (she was always in shadow, out of focus, turned away from the camera, etc). They didn’t seem to show Young Laura and Older Cooper in the same frame at the same time - there were several pans from one to the other. I got the impression that Lynch intercut new footage with leftover footage from Fire Walk With Me, including the motorcycle ride with James, and Leo and Jacques waiting by Leo’s Vette in the woods. However, FWWM is the only part of this whole saga I haven’t watched, so I wouldn’t recognize the footage. I think they did something similar with Phillip Jeffries earlier in the season (before he turned from Bowie into a talking teakettle) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/47 "2017-09-06T03:02:12Z")
> [@SuperNelson](#): > > They didn’t seem to show Young Laura and Older Cooper in the same frame at the same time - there were several pans from one to the other. I got the impression that Lynch intercut new footage with leftover footage from Fire Walk With Me, including the motorcycle ride with James, and Leo and Jacques waiting by Leo’s Vette in the woods. However, FWWM is the only part of this whole saga I haven’t watched, so I wouldn’t recognize the footage. I think they did something similar with Phillip Jeffries earlier in the season (before he turned from Bowie into a talking teakettle) Yes, David Bowie’s footage was from FWWM. I do think they used the Laura Palmer actress, but put her in a wig and avoided direct shots for the new footage with Cooper, though. I’m going to have to watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/48 "2017-09-06T06:34:07Z")
So who or what was Sarah Palmer? Why was she stabbing Laura’s picture? Was that scene shown before or after Cooper “rescued” Laura? I don’t recall. Was it in the old timeline, or is it the future in the new timeline? (A future where Laura dissappeared without a body being found.) Was Sarah the girl who swallowed the frog bug, or was that someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/49 "2017-09-06T17:31:43Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > So who or what was Sarah Palmer? Why was she stabbing Laura’s picture? Was that scene shown before or after Cooper “rescued” Laura? I don’t recall. Was it in the old timeline, or is it the future in the new timeline? (A future where Laura dissappeared without a body being found.) > > Was Sarah the girl who swallowed the frog bug, or was that someone else? It would probably make more sense if it was Leland’s mom, since he’s the one who turned into BOB, originally. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/50 "2017-09-06T18:14:47Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It would probably make more sense if it was Leland’s mom, since he’s the one who turned into BOB, originally. But the original series strongly implied that Leland was possessed because of the man who lived next door to his parent’s summer house when he was a boy. He looked like Bob and would throw matches at Leland and ask if he liked to play with fire. That would seem to be his first encounter with Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_A_Tame_Lion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/51 "2017-09-06T18:39:06Z")
I just want to say that seeing Lucy blow away doppelCooper was probably the most surprising and delightful thing I’ve seen in any TV show ever. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/52 "2017-09-06T18:57:03Z")
> [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](#): > > I just want to say that seeing Lucy blow away doppelCooper was probably the most surprising and delightful thing I’ve seen in any TV show ever. Yes, that was great, and no one has been talking about it. I think it’s been overshadowed by the confusion over the ending. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/53 "2017-09-06T19:32:09Z")
Parts 16 and 17 were just amazing episodes. Those who were hoping for complete resolution in part 18 were likely disappointed. But it must not have been Lynch’s intent to answer all the questions. We’re left to wonder- is Cooper in the future or past? Is Laura going to recall the original timeline? Was that her mother calling for her at the end? So Dale became Richard and Diane became Linda? And what about Audrey- is she alive or dead or in an asylum? And whatever happened to Chester Desmond from FWWM? So we didn’t get all of our questions answered. But this allows us to think about this great work of art all the longer. What we have seen in these 18 parts have been a lot of pretty good filmmaking with a few episodes of absolute brilliance mixed in. Part 8 is going to be talked about for decades, and as soon as this comes out on blu ray I’m buying it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/54 "2017-09-06T19:42:17Z")
Who were the two customers visible in Judy’s Diner during Cooper’s fight with the three cowboys? Were they supposed to be random bystanders? ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/55 "2017-09-06T19:44:47Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That could very well be, but you still might have a messed up timeline in the real world. Instead of a dead girl you have a missing girl. You’re right; the real-world timeline is still changed regardless of what happened to Cooper and Laura/Carrie. What I was trying to say earlier is that Cooper isn’t wholly responsible for making a mess of things. He didn’t put Laura in Odessa and erase her memories; I think Judy did that. I’m wondering now if Judy’s actions were retroactive, and maybe in the altered timeline (the one where we see Pete Martell walking along the lakeshore and NOT finding a body) there was never a “Laura Palmer” at all. I also question whether Lynch and Frost really intended to wipe out the entire series continuity from Laura’s murder to the present. Maybe we’re seeing a parallel timeline that exists alongside the original one. In any case, I doubt that Lynch has any interest in following the conventions of time travel as depicted in _Star Trek_ or _Back to the Future_. If there are future _Twin Peaks_ episodes (and I don’t see that happening) I don’t think this will ever be explained or sorted out. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/56 "2017-09-06T19:53:09Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Who were the two customers visible in Judy’s Diner during Cooper’s fight with the three cowboys? Were they supposed to be random bystanders? If so, they seemed oddly unconcerned about Cooper waving a gun around and shooting that cowboy in the foot. It also struck me that Cooper is behaving more like Evil Cooper in that scene. He’s rude and unfriendly to the server and isn’t excited about getting coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/57 "2017-09-06T20:10:11Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But the original series strongly implied that Leland was possessed because of the man who lived next door to his parent’s summer house when he was a boy. He looked like Bob and would throw matches at Leland and ask if he liked to play with fire. > > That would seem to be his first encounter with Bob. I’d forgotten that story. Granted, that’s assuming that Leland was telling the truth and that Lynch was being consistent. In the dream landscape, there’s no strong guarantee of that. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/58 "2017-09-06T20:52:53Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > It also struck me that Cooper is behaving more like Evil Cooper in that scene. He’s rude and unfriendly to the server and isn’t excited about getting coffee. I agree! I thought maybe I had missed something and somehow evil Cooper had not completely perished and was also trying to track down Laura/Carrie. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/59 "2017-09-06T21:39:59Z")
> [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](#): > > I just want to say that seeing Lucy blow away doppelCooper was probably the most surprising and delightful thing I’ve seen in any TV show ever. > [@davidm](#): > > Yes, that was great, and no one has been talking about it. I think it’s been overshadowed by the confusion over the ending. The lack of discussion might also be due to the mixed feelings some viewers have over the fact that there was no real confrontation between Cooper and Mr. C. It’s not that we were expecting a hand-to-hand combat scene with lightning flashes and dramatic music, a la original _Star Trek_\*. But it would have been interesting to hear what they might have said to each other. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > … So Dale became Richard and Diane became Linda? … But Dale was already Dale, and in his thirties, when he rescued Laura…so how would he acquire a different name? (It doesn’t make sense as a ‘history has been changed’ result because it happened so recently.) And why re-use “Richard” when it had already so prominently been used for the son of Audrey and Evil Cooper? … Well, as you pointed out, these and many other questions will remain with us. I’m okay with unanswered questions. But there’s a difference between leaving some questions unanswered, and\* actually constructing an episode so that it appears to be a cliffhanger season-ender\*–and my main criticism of the finale is that Lynch and Frost (in my opinion) did exactly that. I’m guessing that most of us had a very similar experience during that last twenty minutes or so of episode 18: ‘there’s so little time left to deal with all this…why all these long shots of the road? Why this very leisurely pace?’ Lynch is known to be interested in the effect his work has on its audience; it’s not impossible to picture him saying ‘I will frustrate them in this way and that will serve my art’ (though maybe not in those words). But he’s also made efforts to help audiences understand what he’s up to: for example, think of his famous ten question-clues for _Mulholland Drive_. So in the end, it doesn’t seem reasonable to posit that his goal with the TPTR finale was to annoy and aggravate his audience. So many plot and character threads were deliberately created and left unraveled in _Twin Peaks: The Return_. Maybe Lynch just couldn’t say ‘goodbye,’ even though he knew that another return to that world isn’t a practical possibility. \*Picturing Robert Brown versus Robert Brown in _The Alternative Factor_, of course. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427/60 "2017-09-07T00:10:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > … > I’m guessing that most of us had a very similar experience during that last twenty minutes or so of episode 18: 'there’s so little time left to deal with all this…why all these long shots of the road? Why this very leisurely pace? > '… That was exactly my experience. I kept looking at the clock and thinking "what you hell are you > [@Sherrerd](#): > > The lack of discussion might also be due to the mixed feelings some viewers have over the fact that there was no real confrontation between Cooper and Mr. C. > > It’s not that we were expecting a hand-to-hand combat scene with lightning flashes and dramatic music, a la original _Star Trek_\*. But it would have been interesting to hear what they might have said to each other. > > But Dale was already Dale, and in his thirties, when he rescued Laura…so how would he acquire a different name? (It doesn’t make sense as a ‘history has been changed’ result because it happened so recently.) And why re-use “Richard” when it had already so prominently been used for the son of Audrey and Evil Cooper? > > … Well, as you pointed out, these and many other questions will remain with us. I’m okay with unanswered questions. But there’s a difference between leaving some questions unanswered, and\* actually constructing an episode so that it appears to be a cliffhanger season-ender\*–and my main criticism of the finale is that Lynch and Frost (in my opinion) did exactly that. > > I’m guessing that most of us had a very similar experience during that last twenty minutes or so of episode 18: ‘there’s so little time left to deal with all this…why all these long shots of the road? Why this very leisurely pace?’ > > Lynch is known to be interested in the effect his work has on its audience; it’s not impossible to picture him saying ‘I will frustrate them in this way and that will serve my art’ (though maybe not in those words). But he’s also made efforts to help audiences understand what he’s up to: for example, think of his famous ten question-clues for _Mulholland Drive_. So in the end, it doesn’t seem reasonable to posit that his goal with the TPTR finale was to annoy and aggravate his audience. > > So many plot and character threads were deliberately created and left unraveled in _Twin Peaks: The Return_. Maybe Lynch just couldn’t say ‘goodbye,’ even though he knew that another return to that world isn’t a practical possibility. > > \*Picturing Robert Brown versus Robert Brown in _The Alternative Factor_, of course. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > … > I’m guessing that most of us had a very similar experience during that last twenty minutes or so of episode 18: ‘there’s so little time left to deal with all this…why all these long shots of the road? Why this very leisurely pace?’ > … That was exactly my experience. I kept looking at the time and thinking “what the hell are you doing? There’s already not enough time to wrap things up, and you’re wasting all of this time showing them driving?” In fact I think I was actually shouting that at the TV rather than just thinking it. I don’t know what my neighbors must have thought. If Lynch thinks that frustrating his viewers is art, I have to disagree. Look at this YouTube video of a woman who’s been doing reaction videos of episodes since around episode 9 or 10. She’s obviously very emotionally invested in the show, and towards the end you can tell that she’s getting frustrated. At the moment the credits started rolling, indicating the end, she bursts into tears. If that was Lynch’s intention, then fuck him. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/bi22RvKGaQ0/hqdefault.jpg "Twin Peaks, The Return, Part 18: Reaction and first thoughts") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi22RvKGaQ0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/twin-peaks-the-return-parts-17-and-18-open-spoilers/795427.md?page=4)