# Two arguments against the death penalty: one effective, one ineffective **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013 "2015-07-13T03:54:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/21 "2015-07-13T13:44:56Z")
Since it is impossible for anyone who has already been executed can be exonerated by a court of law, that’s a ridiculous point to make (though I suspect you’ll continue to bring it up until you’re old and grey.) ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/22 "2015-07-13T13:47:12Z")
When I ask myself why I am against the death penalty, I usually arrive at the question: “Why should I be \*for \*it?” My reasoning is that I pefer to live in a society that does not allow the state to kill its citizens, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. What could possibly be a compelling reason to kill a convicted felon that you have in your custody? The ones I can think of are: [ul] [li]_To deter others from commiting the same crime_[/li]I have not yet seen any convincing evidence that the death penalty does have that effect. Most perpetrators either seem to assume that they will never be caught or to not care what happens to them anyway. [li]_To protect society by permanently removing the felon_[/li]A person who has been executed can not commit further crimes - that much is true. But keeping a person locked up should be sufficient to do the same. The possibility of jailbreak does not strike me as a compelling reason to kill someone. [li]_To do justice by chosing the appropriate sentence_[/li]This one is harder to refute. In western societies that have the death sentence it is usually handed out for murder. One could argue that the appropriate sentence for taking a life is having your own life taken in return. But if we follow this “Quid pro quo” approach - where does that lead us? Should an arsonist be burned? Should we blow up the Boston bomber? Certainly not. Most supporters of the death penalty maintain that it should be executed as painlessly as possible - regardless of whether the victims of the convicted died painlessly or not. So if the sentence is obvoiusly not directly derived from what the victims have suffered, why then must it be death? Why can it not be life in prison? Again, I can not see a compelling reason for allowing the state to kill here. [/ul] I will admit that occasionally when I read or hear about particularly vile crimes I have a gut reaction of wanting to see those who did it dead (or worse - base instincts are a bitch). But most of the time I prefer to live in a society where legislation is not formed based on gut feelings and base instincts. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/23 "2015-07-13T14:33:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think something a little more recent than 70 years ago is so stratospheric. > > Regards, > Shodan [Here are some more.](http://www.save-innocents.com/executed-but-innocent.html) Perhaps some of these guys really were guilty. But I find it incredible that they all were. In all cases, I believe reasonable doubt existed. One guy had a mistrial after 11 of 12 jurors voted to acquit, then later tried, convicted, and executed. I think the onus should be on the DP proponents: demonstrate the benefit to execution that could not be achieved by life imprisonment. Prove that that benefit exceeds the cost of innocent blood being shed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/24 "2015-07-13T16:39:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [Here are some more.](http://www.save-innocents.com/executed-but-innocent.html) You are kind of missing the point. Simply reposting the case for the defense isn’t exoneration either. > [@](#): > > In all cases, I believe reasonable doubt existed. By definition, you are mistaken. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/25 "2015-07-13T16:40:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since it is impossible for anyone who has already been executed can be exonerated by a court of law, that’s a ridiculous point to make (though I suspect you’ll continue to bring it up until you’re old and grey.) I assume you are addressing **Humble Thinker**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/26 "2015-07-13T17:02:17Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I have to say that it is very saddening that “It is morally wrong” isn’t a compelling argument for the general public. People call abortion and gay marriage morally wrong don’t they? “It’s morally wrong” frequently is \*\*not \*\*an end-all settlement of a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/27 "2015-07-13T17:26:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > By definition, you are mistaken. You are correct insofar as the original trial went. But what if, after the fact, you can show evidence that the evidence given at trial was seriously flawed and there was prosecutorial misconduct? > [@](#): > > Since Willingham’s execution, persistent questions have been raised as to the accuracy of the forensic evidence used in the conviction; specifically, whether it can be proven that an accelerant (such as the lighter fluid mentioned above) was used to start the fatal fire.[25] Fire investigator Gerald L. Hurst reviewed the case documents, including the trial transcriptions and an hour-long videotape of the aftermath of the fire scene. Hurst said in December 2004 that “There’s nothing to suggest to any reasonable arson investigator that this was an arson fire. It was just a fire.”[7] > > In June 2009, the State of Texas ordered a re-examination of the case. In August 2009, eighteen years after the fire and five years after Willingham’s execution, a report conducted by Dr. Craig Beyler, hired by the Texas Forensic Science Commission to review the case, found that “a finding of arson could not be sustained”. Beyler said that key testimony from a fire marshal at Willingham’s trial was “hardly consistent with a scientific mind-set and is more characteristic of mystics or psychics”. > > \ > > In 2010, the Innocence Project filed a lawsuit against the State of Texas, seeking a judgment of “official oppression”.[35] Judge Charlie Baird held an inquiry in September 2010 in Austin, but Lowell Thompson, the Navarro County DA, appeared at the hearing with a motion for Baird to recuse himself for conflict of interest (Baird had once affirmed Willingham’s conviction while sitting as a Criminal Appeals judge, yet had also been recognized by an anti-death-penalty group). When the recusal motion was denied, Thompson appealed to the Third Court of Appeals and had the proceedings stayed. (Thompson later received an award from the Texas District and County Attorneys Association for this motion and appeal.)[36][37] > > In 2014, The Washington Post reported that new evidence emerged indicating that Webb has said in taped interviews that he lied on the witness stand in exchange for a prosecutor’s help obtaining a reduced prison term and financial support from a rich rancher.[38] On March 3, 2015, the Texas State Bar filed a disciplinary action, Commission for Lawyer Discipline v. Jackson, against Jackson for failing to disclose information on his deal with Webb.[39] According to the complaint “During a pretrial hearing on July 24, 1992, [Jackson] told the trial court that he had no evidence favorable to Willingham. That statement was false.” > > SOURCE: [Cameron Todd Willingham - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham#Post-execution_attention) There is a lengthy [but excellent and thorough article exploring the case above by The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire) on the same case mentioned in the quote above. Well worth a read and I’d be curious as to what your opinion would be after reading it (it is long though so I can understand if you’d rather not). More broadly we know we convict innocent people all the time. It is almost impossible not to. Why would you (or anyone) suppose we always get it right when it comes to the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/28 "2015-07-13T17:41:55Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Upthread Velocity and Measure have listed a number of arguments that are frequently heard from those who oppose the death penalty. Clearly these arguments do not convince you. Can you tell us why that is? What is it that makes you support the death penalty? I, for one, support the death penalty because there are certain crimes so heinous that life imprisonment isn’t a strong enough punishment. That’s more or less all there is to it. I don’t consider the possibility of an innocent person being executed to be significant because there’s no solid evidence that an innocent person _has_ been executed in this country at least in the past half-century and because the entire lengthy appeals process is specifically intended to make sure that innocent people aren’t executed. I don’t consider the cost a factor because I don’t believe cost should ever be a deciding factor in whether or not someone gets the punishment they deserve. I don’t consider its status as a deterrent or not to be relevant. I’m not moved by claims that it’s “barbaric” or “immoral” because those are nothing more than subjective value judgments and appeals to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/29 "2015-07-13T17:42:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > More broadly we know we convict innocent people all the time. It is almost impossible not to. Why would you (or anyone) suppose we always get it right when it comes to the death penalty? Is the margin of error really that relevant to this discussion? If you feel inclined to yell “Of course it is! How can you think it is not?”, ask yourself: If you are opposed to the death penalty, would it change your mind, if there was some hypothetical way to make absolutely sure that the convict really committed the crime? And if you support the death penalty, do you do this because you believe that the margin of error is zero? Would you change your mind, if you could be convinced that it is not? I believe that neither camp could be swayed by the answer to this question. It is a supporting argument at best. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/30 "2015-07-13T18:34:07Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Is the margin of error really that relevant to this discussion? If you feel inclined to yell “Of course it is! How can you think it is not?”, ask yourself: > > If you are opposed to the death penalty, would it change your mind, if there was some hypothetical way to make absolutely sure that the convict really committed the crime? > > And if you support the death penalty, do you do this because you believe that the margin of error is zero? Would you change your mind, if you could be convinced that it is not? > > I believe that neither camp could be swayed by the answer to this question. It is a supporting argument at best. How many innocent people is it ok to put to death before you think it goes too far? One? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where do you draw the line? How many are too many? If we had a magical way to 100% determine guilt or innocence then the vast majority of the problems with our justice system would disappear over night. But we don’t so we have to deal with the realities of an imperfect justice system. Given that at least we can do the best we can and the death penalty is far, far from it on numerous counts. > [@](#): > > “It is hard to find a more wasteful and inefficient government program than the death penalty.” By way of example, he offered: “Jasper County in Texas raised property taxes by 7 percent in order to pay for one death penalty case!” > > SOURCE: > [Quote by Ron Paul deemed “True” by Politifact Texas] > ([PolitiFact | Ron Paul says death penalty trial fueled Texas county's tax hike](http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2015/jul/09/ron-paul/ron-paul-says-death-penalty-trial-fueled-texas-tax/)) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/31 "2015-07-13T19:48:38Z")
I’ve always had a problem with the disconnect between “we have the moral right, nay, _obligation_ to execute people who we think should be dead” and “but no, they shouldn’t be made to suffer.” Dead is dead. If they think they have the right to kill somebody, get it over with. Bullet to the head. Blam. Done. Move On. On the other hand, if they honestly have a moral quandary over whether or not they’re causing a fellow human being to suffer, they really need to take a giant step back and revisit that “moral right to kill people” part… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/32 "2015-07-13T19:56:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, support the death penalty because there are certain crimes so heinous that life imprisonment isn’t a strong enough punishment. That’s more or less all there is to it. > > I don’t consider the possibility of an innocent person being executed to be significant because there’s no solid evidence that an innocent person _has_ been executed in this country at least in the past half-century and because the entire lengthy appeals process is specifically intended to make sure that innocent people aren’t executed. I don’t consider the cost a factor because I don’t believe cost should ever be a deciding factor in whether or not someone gets the punishment they deserve. I don’t consider its status as a deterrent or not to be relevant. I’m not moved by claims that it’s “barbaric” or “immoral” because those are nothing more than subjective value judgments and appeals to religion. To believe that only in this one small area-the death penalty-the law has never made a mistake is akin to believing in magic. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/33 "2015-07-13T20:01:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Someone (can’t recall who) once pointed out that opponents of the death penalty often use two arguments. One is highly effective, the other is highly _in_effective. Not a fan of either. The argument that carries most traction imo is legal; the quality of defence vs. prosecution. Often the defendant is clueless about process and has no idea they are getting 3rd rate representation in terms of time and attention. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/34 "2015-07-13T20:07:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How many innocent people is it ok to put to death before you think it goes too far? One? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where do you draw the line? How many are too many? You misread my post. I am not saying, that putting innocent people is ok. I am against the death penalty. But I would still be against the death penalty, if we could “magically” ensure that no innocent person ever gets executed. So convincing me that no mistakes happen - even if that were possible - would do nothing. At the same time I believe that those in favor (most of them at least) are realists enough to know that mistakes \*can \*happen - however unlikely they make these mistakes out to be. Still they are in favor of the death penalty. So convincing them that mistakes can happen - even if that were necessary - would also do nothing. The question whether or not there is a risk of executing an innocent does not really further the discussion. Those in favor will still be in favor, and those against will still be against. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/35 "2015-07-13T20:25:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The \*effective \*argument points out that innocent people have been executed before for crimes they didn’t commit. This argument is usually very persuasive - nobody wants to see innocent people wrongfully put to death. This appeal typically results in lessened support for capital punishment. I’m against the death penalty–which is to say, I would be perfectly OK with abolishing it–but I don’t find this argument persuasive. We have a problem that we are convicting innocent people of heinous crimes and executing them. So, we solve this problem by abolishing the _penalty_? Like, it’s perfectly OK to convict innocent people of heinous crimes and then sentence them to life imprisonment. Hey, eventually they’ll probably be exonerated by some new evidence or new technology or something. Then, we can let them out of prison. Because letting innocent people who have been falsely convicted of heinous crimes back out of prison (and maybe giving them some money) just automatically counteracts all the bad effects of spending seven or twelve or nineteen years in prison–whatever the number was–for things they didn’t actually do. They get their spouses back and they magically get to watch their kids grow up and to be there for their aged parents’ last years and are fully and completely reintegrated back into society, no problem. It’s like all our old legal maxims say: “Innocent until you can’t afford to hire a good lawyer or even post bail” and “Better to convict ninety-nine poor people than to let one guilty person go free”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/36 "2015-07-13T20:29:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To believe that only in this one small area-the death penalty-the law has never made a mistake is akin to believing in magic. Of course the law makes mistakes in regards to the death penalty. That’s why we have a comprehensive appeals process - to find and correct those mistakes before we carry out the sentence. And that’s why we don’t execute innocent people in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/37 "2015-07-13T20:34:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course the law makes mistakes in regards to the death penalty. That’s why we have a comprehensive appeals process - to find and correct those mistakes before we carry out the sentence. > > And that’s why we don’t execute innocent people in this country. We’ve already gone over this with you in previous threads, and there is no possible response to such an absurd statement that could be posted…at least not in _this_ forum. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/38 "2015-07-13T20:37:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are correct insofar as the original trial went. > > But what if, after the fact, you can show evidence that the evidence given at trial was seriously flawed and there was prosecutorial misconduct? You would need to come up with a level of evidence sufficient to prove innocence. Not reasonable doubt - stronger evidence than that. The presumption of innocence has already been overcome at trial. Therefore, for anti-DP advocates to simply repeat the defence case, or to come up with expert testimony, or unsworn testimony, and not give the prosecution a chance to cross-examine, is not sufficient (in my mind) to say so-and-so was innocent. > [@](#): > > Why would you (or anyone) suppose we always get it right when it comes to the death penalty? Because > [@Smapti](#): > > …because the entire lengthy appeals process is specifically intended to make sure that innocent people aren’t executed. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How many innocent people is it ok to put to death before you think it goes too far? One? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? Where do you draw the line? How many are too many? One more than the number of innocent people who die when the death penalty is not imposed. You have, at most, Willingham, whose death would have been prevented if we imposed LWOP instead. I have a list of [deaths](http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html) that would have been prevented if we had imposed death instead. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/39 "2015-07-13T20:47:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have no objection to the death penalty in principle, but find the U.S. justice system too flawed to allow it. Agreed. Also, the bloodlust it engenders is poison to both those who experience and those of us who witness it. A civilized response is, “This is a terrible, cruel choice, but we just have no other way of dealing with the killer.” ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013/40 "2015-07-13T21:27:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I have a list of [deaths](http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html) that would have been prevented if we had imposed death instead. Well, if you want to make a case for the death penalty, preventing further crimes seems like a reasonable argument. But would the death penalty really have prevented all those murders on your list? On that list I see mainly two groups of repeat killers: Those who escaped to kill again and those who have been paroled. The death penalty won’t effectively prevent the former, because, as you have mentioned, there is a lengthy appeals procedure. This takes years and would have given many (probably most) of the jailbreakers on your list the time to escape. You could argue that the death penalty still makes a jailbreak less likely. But improving on prison security would do that too. The latter group - those who have been paroled - would have been kept from killing again by a life sentence without parole. So for these cases I do not see why it should have needed a death sentence for preventing the second murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-arguments-against-the-death-penalty-one-effective-one-ineffective/725013.md?page=3)