# Two conflicting messages for the public on body weight **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642 "2017-05-01T15:11:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/21 "2017-05-01T22:12:12Z")
You know, as a woman, the only way to be truly liberated is to base your self esteem and identity on your intangible qualities. Your creativeness, your talents, your intelligence, your courage, and so on. In other words, as long as you are a reasonable physical size, and relatively healthy, it should not matter in the least to you what you look like. Looks are the most shallow, unnecessary, and wasteful thing to spend time or money obsessing on. Be clean and presentable. That’s all you need. Perhaps you have a significant other who you like to dress up for. That’s fine. Just don’t go nuts. If they love you, your looks will be less important to them than to you. Once I decided my mind and soul were more important than anything to do with my body, things became much easier. I don’t even bother with makeup now. Don’t fall for the cosmetic, plastic surgery, weight loss hype. They’re just trying to sell crap to you. Become liberated women. Love your intangible self. And godammit, wear sensible shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/22 "2017-05-01T22:32:06Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You know, as a woman, the only way to be truly liberated is to base your self esteem and identity on your intangible qualities. Your creativeness, your talents, your intelligence, your courage, and so on. I fully agree, and I’d add an equivalent for men: Base your self-worth on who you are, not what you do. Eventually, you will be unable to do what you do as effectively as you’re accustomed to, and you might end up being unable to do it at all. If you based your self-worth on being someone who does that, you will be in for a serious crisis after a serious accident, a permanent job loss (yes, this does happen), or even retirement, let alone age. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/23 "2017-05-01T23:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > and men (IMHO) do not seem to have the same societal pressures as women for body image it’s more than your opinion, it’s the truth. Obesity is a problem for everyone, but women get slammed far harder for any imperfections than men do. I mean, I’m in a couple of R/C boat racing clubs. most of the other members are 55-70 year old men. Nearly all of them look like they’re fucking pregnant (central obesity,) and nobody gives it a second thought. There’s a huge imbalance. I subscribe to satellite radio because I love the comedy channels. For a while, Patrice O’Neal was in heavy rotation. This guy basically was the definition of “morbidly obese” (to the point he was T2D in his 20s and died of a stroke at 41) yet so much of his act was criticizing women who shouldn’t even have bothered to give him the time of day. I’ve also pointed out how an aging sad-sack like Chris Berman can be a main anchor on ESPN, yet any woman who wants to be a reporter or co-anchor needs to be at least an 8. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/24 "2017-05-01T23:51:57Z")
I would say, regardless of health issues, people should have a positive feeling about their body and body shamers should go the way of the dodo. At the same time, the vast majority of people could stand to evaluate their lifestyles and take steps to be more active and eat better. Everyone isn’t the same so the ideal weight will vary for individual, but having a healthy/realistic attitude about one’s body actually makes it easier to achieve the goals of weight loss. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/25 "2017-05-02T00:49:03Z")
Male, last weighed in at 372. I get NO conflicting messages. :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/26 "2017-05-02T01:10:02Z")
[QUOTE=jz78817] . . . Nearly all of them look like they’re fucking pregnant (central obesity,) and nobody gives it a second thought. . . [/QUOTE] apparently you’ve given it more than one thought, and i’m sure many others have as well. there may not be an (fashion) industry devoted to making them feel bad, but the discrimination against obese men exists just as strongly as it does against women. mc ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/27 "2017-05-02T01:12:58Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > … BMI is a simple tool and needs to be used intelligently, but it is possible to use BMI in a correct fashion. Thinking it’s positively worthless is common HAES thinking. … > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not so sure this is well-established. Are there many studies of obesity that tease out as separate variables things like diet and exercise? > > Imagine an individual who is obese, but who eats a great diet at maintenance caloric intake and who gets a lot of exercise. Is that person really at significantly increased risk of heart disease and all the rest solely because of the fat? Do we have a lot of evidence for that? These two statements are not mutually exclusive. BMI is great for populations in aggregate. It is a fair tool for screening individuals for relative risk. Someone with a BMI somewhere between 18 and 25 may be metabolically obese and have both poor exercise and poor nutrition habits but they are more likely not and less likely in need of changes in lifestyle than someone whose BMI is 35. Now if that person whose BMI is 35 turns out to be someone who exercises regularly, has a healthy nutrition plan, and had been 10% heavier now maintaining that loss with that ongoing disciplined exercise and nutrition plan, then they have no need to change their lifestyle. They are likely fairly damn healthy, have much less central fat than they previously had, and they are still obese. BMI is just a starting point for an individual assessment. > [@Doubticus](#): > > I would say, regardless of health issues, people should have a positive feeling about their body and body shamers should go the way of the dodo. At the same time, the vast majority of people could stand to evaluate their lifestyles and take steps to be more active and eat better. Everyone isn’t the same so the ideal weight will vary for individual, but having a healthy/realistic attitude about one’s body actually makes it easier to achieve the goals of weight loss. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/28 "2017-05-02T01:14:06Z")
[Fat Shaming Isn’t Just A Woman’s Problem](http://fortune.com/2015/11/20/overweight-men-discrimination/) > [@](#): > > There’s plenty of evidence showing that obese women experience discrimination. They’re less likely to get hired, their salaries are lower, and they tend to be mistreated even as customers in shopping malls. > > But according to a new study, “Weight isn’t selling: The insidious effects of weight stigmatization in retail settings,” by researchers at Rice University and the University of North Carolina, Charlotte, men are just as likely to be penalized for being overweight. mc ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/29 "2017-05-02T02:00:08Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > [Fat Shaming Isn’t Just A Woman’s Problem](http://fortune.com/2015/11/20/overweight-men-discrimination/) > > mc I often think that the prejudice against fat guys is just quieter than that against fat women. Largely because I suspect most of the people who would like to tell me how fat I am are also a little bit scared that I might beat the shit out of them if they do. I may be fat, but I ain’t weak. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/30 "2017-05-02T02:13:43Z")
Some of the responses have tried with some skill to square this circle but there is somewhat of a contradiction. Also some people can really change their habits permanently enough to lose weight and keep it off even if many can’t. It’s pretty much individual. But the view of overweight people is more a whole society thing and I don’t think it’s really going to change. It’s IMO a deeper reaction by people than to something like a person’s skin color etc… not to get off onto a tangent of whether than kind of prejudice can really disappear, but I just don’t see disapproval of overweight people going away. And that ties back to how it really isn’t trivial, it’s a health problem. The whole thing depending on degree though. People have been throwing around BMI’s but that’s controversial, or the exact cut off for a given body type and age where a person is really ‘overweight’ or ‘obese’, And likewise in attitudes, you can’t give a single bright line where all people of all cultures and backgrounds find bigness non attractive v attractive. And it does change somewhat over time also. But I don’t just don’t see much likelihood of a ‘magazine body’ ever not being an advantage. And on the male side IME if anything it’s become more unfashionable in high power professions to be overweight, it’s not just an issue of sexual objectification (of women, principally). The ‘fat cat’ executive used to be a semi-literal stereotype, but pretty inaccurate now. Among upper middle class to rich people it’s if anything more and more of a social drawback to be overweight, besides health issues. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/31 "2017-05-02T02:55:03Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But the view of overweight people is more a whole society thing and I don’t think it’s really going to change. . . but I just don’t see disapproval of overweight people going away. And that ties back to how it really isn’t trivial, it’s a health problem… . . > > . . .if anything it’s become more unfashionable in high power professions to be overweight, it’s not just an issue of sexual objectification (of women, principally). The ‘fat cat’ executive used to be a semi-literal stereotype, but pretty inaccurate now. Among upper middle class to rich people it’s if anything more and more of a social drawback to be overweight, besides health issues. so which is it? is it something that changes over time or is it something that goes deeper? there’s plenty of evidence that how people feel about body types is nothing but societal pressure and that changes over time, and that the health “facts” of today are just what the body shamers are currently using to justify their unkindness and judgement. > [@](#): > > During the early and mid-Victorian era, a great many health and beauty books echoed the popular 19th century sentiment that plumpness equaled good health. It was leanness, not heaviness, to which beauty experts directed the majority of their criticism. For example, in his 1870 book Personal Beauty: How to Cultivate and Preserve it in Accordance with the Laws of Health, author Daniel Brinton states that a “scrawny bony figure” is “intolerable to gods and men.”. . .by the end of the century a new trend was on the rise. No longer was roundness or plumpness seen as being wholly synonymous with health and beauty. Instead, many Victorians began to view excess weight as a sign that a woman was inconsiderate, stupid, lazy, and—in some cases—even promiscuous or insane. > **[Victorian Fat Shaming: Harsh Words on Weight from the 19th Century | Mimi...](https://www.mimimatthews.com/2016/04/25/victorian-fat-shaming-harsh-words-on-weight-from-the-19th-century/)** > > “All defects are in the nature of ugliness, but certain ones are more degrading than others; and of these obesity, which is a deformity, is signally ignoble.” The Woman Beautiful, 1899. During the early and mid-Victorian era, a great many health and... mc ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/32 "2017-05-02T13:57:36Z")
Overweight people know the health risks. We don’t need to be shat upon by average weight people to know this. We can feel good about ourselves even though we’re overweight. Most of the ugly things said about our bodies aren’t from people who are concerned about our health; they’re embracing any opportunity to feel superior. And being obese doesn’t mean we’re in poor health. I just got my first checkup in years recently and I’m the picture of good health despite being obese. I’m 47 and don’t need to be on any medications, unlike my brother who is a wiry muscular bicyclist but he’s on cholesterol meds and has elevated blood pressure. I DO have some knee issues when it’s cold out. It may be weight related completely but I have taken a few hard falls in my life, smack on my knees, so that could not have helped the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/33 "2017-05-02T14:04:06Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > so which is it? is it something that changes over time or is it something that goes deeper? It’s something deeper (the eg. taste in skin tone) but it’s a matter of degree and the degree can change over time, like I said. In part because some of the reasons can change over time, but there’s some constancy to some of them. For example to the extent it’s more difficult to attain the wherewithal to feed oneself adequately, some extra weight might be a positive signal. Now (and where) that’s much less common, it fades as a reason. Or plumpness as a sign of lack of some wasting type disease. OTOH being very overweight is a health problem, and typically health problems aren’t viewed as attractive. Likewise being overweight isn’t necessarily caused by absolute lack of self discipline in any given individual, but in general people with iron wills are less likely to be overweight. That factors in I think with the difficulty accepting overweight men as truly successful. Again this doesn’t necessarily determine if buffed up female models are more attractive than slightly plump ones, which obviously has changed in living memory. But it’s IMHO, happy talk at best to think men are going to be browbeaten into finding fat women physically attractive in general, or society as a whole is going to be browbeaten into not reaching for fat jokes to cut down eg. Chris Christie. Of course some people making those jokes are justifying it because he’s an ‘evil’ Republican, but for a fat Democrat it would just be different enemies making the same jokes. I don’t see it changing, again AFAICT the perceived incompatibility between fat and being viewed as truly successful is still growing. And it’s IMO inherently dicey to go back before living memory and try to find ‘cites’ of people’s general attitudes toward touchy feely kind of things. In the long enough run maybe it will change materially, but in the long run we’re all dead. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/34 "2017-05-02T14:15:20Z")
The men/women situation is not simple either. Seriously obese men and women face a lot of scorn, perhaps equally. Men have the easier time in the range of ‘overweight’. Men’s fashions don’t highlight figures much, it’s easy for men to cover up without being called fat even though they can be carrying a lot of extra pounds and very unfit. Women are expected to maintain an ideal figure, one that changes over time, and their clothes often are made to highlight that figure leaving women who don’t meet that ideal, whether fit or not, to be labeled as fat, out of shape, or even just unattractive. But men do suffer body shaming also. It’s tough to be the fat guy in the locker room. I know a fellow with a sunken sternum who will never be seen without a shirt on, and men who are quite fit but don’t have any bulging muscles or otherwise don’t fit the traditional masculine proportions. But again, a man can cover up with his clothes easily, women covering up in the same way are assumed to be overweight. Life sucks for everybody who doesn’t meet societal expectations of body form and societal expectations are much tougher to meet for many women. The worst of it is that this has nothing to do with health and fitness, not to mention any truly important aspect of being a good and valuable person. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/35 "2017-05-02T14:24:11Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Women have had much practice in coping with this mixed message, because every newsstand for the past 50 years has had at least one magazine with something like this on the cover: SIX WEEKS TO YOUR IDEAL BEACH BODY!, see inside (and then below that, or maybe above it), 10 DELICIOUS DESSERT RECIPES We don’t even need the magazines. Walking into Mom’s: “oh hi honey! Oh darling, you really need to lose some weight…” Two hours later, as we sit down to eat: “is that all you’re going to eat?” ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/36 "2017-05-02T16:48:18Z")
The problem is more to do with perception than with people unaware or in denial of general risks of being heavier. A lot of Americans are psychotic, because they will see right in front of their face what Michelle Obama looks like and they honestly, adamantly think she’s overweight or worse, like this beached whale or 275 pound linebacker. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/37 "2017-05-02T20:02:50Z")
Two points that I wanted to make after reading your OP. One, that women feel the pressure worse than men, has already been covered. The other point hasn’t been covered, unless I missed it when reading over the responses. When I was younger (think high school and college age), I was slightly heavy, enough that my doctor told me I should lose weight. I felt ashamed, I cried, but I couldn’t actually figure out how to lose weight (I was trying diet and exercise, but I really just didn’t have a proper education on how to practically go about applying the principles of diet and exercise). Later in life, I got my weight under control by changing my relationship with my body. I never went so far as to embrace my flaws the way some people recommend. I don’t think flabby arms and a protruding waistline is something you should ever celebrate. However, I started working out, and got proud and excited at the new things I could, the weights I could lift, the speed at which I could run, etc. This put me on a trajectory of loving my body and wanting to take better care of it. The point I’m trying to make is that shame does not motivate me to lose weight, and I suspect it leaves many other women sadly unmotivated as well. Conversely, if you can convince women to love their bodies, then this may actually inspire women to treat their bodies better. Still a mixed message, but I don’t think the message of body love completely contradicts the push to get Americans healthier. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/38 "2017-05-02T21:08:38Z")
There are some folks who are convinced that one must be coat-hanger skinny and some folks who truly think being 250 pounds is just fine health-wise. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642/39 "2017-05-02T23:30:16Z")
Shaming is an awful practice and is mean-spirited. It is not a motivator, it’s a demotivator. People should not feel ashamed of their bodies. But just because someone rejects shame doesn’t mean they still shouldn’t get healthier. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-conflicting-messages-for-the-public-on-body-weight/785642.md?page=1)