# Two mean things women do to themselves. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 26, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720 "2009-08-26T00:51:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/41 "2009-08-27T00:58:06Z")
Things like short skirts and heels are idiotic holdovers from a time when women had no societal value beyond looking pretty in between popping out babies. They’re impractical. I don’t care if you can dance in them or find them completely comfortable: they were designed solely for the aesthetic benefit of others. Maybe it’s just because I’m not terribly attractive, but I personally think I have other things beyond “ooh pretty” to offer, so I don’t bother with that crap. (And this ignores how stupidly overpriced things like that are. And those allegedly comfortable heels? How many hours of your life did you waste shopping for the perfect pair? Two? Three? More?) ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/42 "2009-08-27T02:34:04Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > So you heels fans feel confident and powerful, etc _because_ of your shoes? > Wow! Does taking long strides still work? > To me, if a woman is sexy it’s because she’s sexy. That quality has nothing to do with clothing or makeup or shoes. Or fast cars. > To be clear, “sexy” means that her presence, my awareness of her, brings about physiological changes in me. For me it is a shoe fetish. Heels are sexy to me in the store, on a young woman walking by, or at the end of my big legs. What in the world is with all the over analysing of ‘sexy’? Sexy is something that makes me think of hot sex. Sure, a fast car could do it, and often does. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/43 "2009-08-27T03:29:50Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > For me it is a shoe fetish. Heels are sexy to me in the store, on a young woman walking by, or at the end of my big legs. What in the world is with all the over analysing of ‘sexy’? Sexy is something that makes me think of hot sex. Sure, a fast car could do it, and often does. Really? I love driving a fast car. The Gs, the sound of tires at the edge of traction through a nice long, fast turn. I love it, but age now gets in the way. Never had an erection or anything close to it though. So I drive a Honda pickup. And take my meds like a good boy. And get fat and lazy. 🆒 To tell the truth, it’s kinda nice. I wish I had a fetish. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/44 "2009-08-27T03:34:20Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I wear heels with my intimidation suit for tough negotiations. In fact, they are platforms, so make me a good 4"-5" taller. But they are hidden under the pantlegs, so nobody knows. Do you conduct these negotiations on carpeting? I guess heels are sorta hot, but only if the woman wearing them can walk in them somewhat naturally; looking like you’re about to fall over at any moment isn’t too sexy. Regardless, I’m usually more likely to think “she looks uncomfortable” than I am to think “that’s hot.” ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/45 "2009-08-27T03:51:09Z")
> [@Oni no Maggie](#): > > What makes me feel “confident, powerful, and sexy” is shoes that make me feel strong, like I can kick ass and take names. I have a beautiful green patent-leather pair of steeltoe doc martens that make me feel like the heroine of an R. Crumb comic. Now _that_ is “confident, powerful, and sexy”. You know, I’ve been thinking about this, and I guess it’s true, a pair of steel toed Doc Martens are “powerful”, in the sense that you can scramble over a heap of concrete rubble, take the cigar out of your mouth and laugh as you machinegun down a platoon of hapless men.. but that’s a very male concept of power. Doc Martens empower you to do things yourself, to get things done. When I think of the answer to the question “why do heels connote power?” I think of the more feminine concept of power, the power to get people to do things for you, rather than having to do things yourself. Much like how heels originated - only the rich (both men and women!) had the luxury of wearing shoes for the sake of looking good. And I don’t think that only men look at women in a nice pair of heels - some of the more blatent gawkers I notice are women! 😉 The power to attract is just as powerful as the power to impose. Soo.. I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I can understand why heels are seen as quite literally “hobbing” women, but at the same time, they empower women in a very feminine way as well, in a way which men can never hope to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/46 "2009-08-27T04:21:32Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Really? I love driving a fast car. The Gs, the sound of tires at the edge of traction through a nice long, fast turn. I love it, but age now gets in the way. Never had an erection or anything close to it though. Well, see, you gotta have the stilettos on at the time. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/47 "2009-08-27T07:21:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, what’s the need to complain about wearing a short skirt? It’s not uncomfortable. No but when you’re sitting down in one, it looks like you’re going to the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/48 "2009-08-27T07:29:56Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > No but when you’re sitting down in one, it looks like you’re going to the bathroom. Er, I think you’re doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/49 "2009-08-27T09:01:03Z")
In honour of this thread, today I am wearing a short-ish denim skirt and knee-length stiletto boots. People at work have been commenting on this, but I think it’s mostly because I rarely wear skirts. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/50 "2009-08-27T09:19:02Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Er, I think you’re doing it wrong. I don’t like to admit to finding internet memes funny, but… I giggled. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/51 "2009-08-27T10:47:16Z")
**Tabby\_Cat** , I think I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree that “doing things yourself” is inherently masculine and “getting other people to do things for you” is inherently feminine. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/52 "2009-08-27T12:20:27Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > When I think of the answer to the question “why do heels connote power?” I think of the more feminine concept of power, the power to get people to do things for you, rather than having to do things yourself. I think I liked them better when I thought they were just a poor choice of footwear for the sake of fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/53 "2009-08-27T12:51:01Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > **Tabby\_Cat** , I think I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree that “doing things yourself” is inherently masculine and “getting other people to do things for you” is inherently feminine. At least socially inherent, if not biologically inherent.. think about it, Woman: “My husband bought me a diamond necklace!” vs Man: “My wife bought me a tailored suit!” Most women would be envious of the women, but most men would not be envious of the man. Why? Woman: “I put together my own bed!” vs Man: “I repaired the car!” Would any woman brag about that? Whereas men pride themselves on being self-sufficient all the time. I guess this is kind of a hijack, but ever since I started noticing the differences between men and women, these things really stick out in my mind. I understand why being attractive would be a liability sometimes, especially in places where social norms allow for physical domination over people. At the same time, in my social sphere and I should think most civilised societies, where physical domination is not acceptable, attractiveness is really a power in its own right. Not inherently female, I admit, but definitely more commonly used by women than men, and more socially acceptable to be used by women than men. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/54 "2009-08-27T13:11:35Z")
My dad says he gets compliments on the shirts my mom buys him all the time from his co-workers. My roommate and I put together our own desks and bookshelves, and it was _awesome_, and yes, we did run around bragging about that to anyone who would listen. 😃 I can’t think of any woman friends I have who don’t pride themselves on being competent, intelligent and self-sufficient. I hope everybody does, men and women. I don’t think attractiveness (as you’re describing it) is actually a power, it’s a way of persuading powerful people to do something. The seducer can’t actually accomplish anything on their own, they have to rely on someone else to do whatever they want for them. I’m going to have to revert to, of all people, Helen Brown, as [quoted in The New Yorker] ([Helen Gurley Brown and the Birth of the Cosmo Girl | The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2009/05/11/090511crbo_books_thurman?currentPage=4)): > [@](#): > > She added that one could marry a rich man for big diamonds, or a poorer man for smaller diamonds, but maybe the best idea was to buy one’s own diamonds. Attention shoppers: a girl’s best friend is herself. For “diamonds”, substitute “a good job” or “a nice apartment” or whatever you like. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/55 "2009-08-27T13:27:11Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Things like short skirts and heels are idiotic holdovers from a time when women had no societal value beyond looking pretty in between popping out babies. They’re impractical. I don’t care if you can dance in them or find them completely comfortable: they were designed solely for the aesthetic benefit of others. > > Maybe it’s just because I’m not terribly attractive, but I personally think I have other things beyond “ooh pretty” to offer, so I don’t bother with that crap. > > (And this ignores how stupidly overpriced things like that are. And those allegedly comfortable heels? How many hours of your life did you waste shopping for the perfect pair? Two? Three? More?) Wow. So much buzzkill in such a tiny little bit of computer screen. I buy my clothes based on their aesthetic appeal to _ **me** _. And personally, I think it’s pretty cool that in \*addition \*to everything else I have to offer, there’s not only “ooh pretty”, but the confidence to realize that being so does not make me a tool of the patriarchy. Also, I LIKE shoe shopping. Time spent in an activity one enjoys is never time wasted. And Tabby\_Cat, I put together every piece of furniture in my apartment, and damn sure I brag about it. Especially since I did it in heels. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/56 "2009-08-27T13:35:13Z")
Oh, good point, I forgot to add that. I love spending half an hour at lunch or after work going shoe shopping. I usually don’t buy anything, but I like checking out the new styles and going, “ooh, I look great in those! and those! ooh, and _those!_” It’s both a little boost and really relaxing. I probably have about 50/50 flats (mostly ballet flats) and heels in my closet, not counting running shoes and hiking boots. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/57 "2009-08-27T13:40:09Z")
Oh all right, _persuasive_ power as opposed to _coersive_ power, happy now 😛 And men still never get any persuasive power from their physical appearance, unlike women. They occasionally get coersive power though. So there! ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/58 "2009-08-27T14:00:02Z")
I still don’t think that’s actually power. It’s getting somebody with actual power to use that power in a way that the persuader want, but nowhere in that situation does the persuader possess power. According to your theory, why would men need to persuade a woman to do anything?\* They could do it themselves. \*I am excluding things that require the consent and action of two people, such as sexual and romantic relationships. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/59 "2009-08-27T14:09:57Z")
They’re both power, and neither is inherently masculine or feminine. I’ve been persuaded by a man’s physical appearance many a time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720/60 "2009-08-27T14:15:51Z")
Ain’t that the truth! 😃 But I’ve just realized what a hijack this is. Let’s talk about shoes! My birthday is in two weeks, and I’ve bought myself these to wrap up and give myself: [These flats](http://www.clarks.co.uk/find/Department-is-women/CustomProductAttribute2-is-pumps/product-is-20334712) [The heel in the upper left-hand corner](http://i32.tinypic.com/148lu2h.jpg) They’re both super-comfortable, and I found them on sale for less than £20 each. That’s my other favorite part of shopping. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-mean-things-women-do-to-themselves/507720.md?page=4)