# Two men cleared of rape by recording **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930 "2016-11-24T23:56:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/41 "2016-11-26T10:22:41Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > That’s all just evidence that you don’t believe it. Sorry, but the world is not black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/42 "2016-11-26T10:36:48Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > That’s all just evidence that you don’t believe it. From another thread: > [@Woman accuses man of rape/sexual assault. Who do you believe?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/woman-accuses-man-of-rape-sexual-assault-who-do-you-believe/769034/66): > > There is no accurate data, so just as we cannot say that false accusations are common, so we also cannot say that false accusations are rare. > [@What do you think about recording sex sessions?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-recording-sex-sessions/567602/45): > > Lets see: > > “False Rape Allegations” by Eugene Kanin, Archives of Sexual Behavior Feb 1994 v23 n1 p81 (12), found 41% of all claims over a nine year period were false. > > He also studied two state universities and found that 50% of the 64 rape claims were false. > > McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. “False Allegations.” Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64. > This one found 60% false claim rate. > > Here is an online source: [http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6\_2\_4.htm](http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm). > > The percentages are all over the place, but it is clear that false rapes occur frequently. Furthermore, rape is often proved on the basis of one eye-witness’s testimony. As a result, it is impossible to fault a man who records, and keeps private, his sexual encounters. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/43 "2016-11-26T16:08:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Emphasis mine. > > Incorrect. > > The false accuser in the Hofstra case was given 250 hours of community service and—more importantly, i think, in this case—was required to undergo (and pay for) one year of psychiatric counseling. > > You might not think that this penalty was sufficient, and i would possibly agree with you, depending on what her mental status is. But whether you think that or not, your assertion of “no penalty” is flat out wrong. > > As for the case raised in this thread, you and the OP will have to forgive me if i prefer not to jump to any conclusions quite yet. Without further evidence, i’m not inclined to grant the Dubai authorities much credibility regarding what does and does not constitute consensual sex, given the attitude to sex and to women’s rights in the United Arab Emirates. > > Here’s a [case](http://abcnews.go.com/International/Media/arab-woman-retracts-rape-allegation/story?id=10734780) from 2010 where a woman retracted her allegation of gang-rape after she was “threatened with lashes for having premarital sex.” As one Dubai-based analyst said:So, in the case that began this thread, the police organization making the claim that the cellphone video showed consensual sex is the same police organization that arrests women for making accusations of rape. I don’t have much confidence that the people involved in this criminal justice system understand consent in quite the same way that i do. I’d be willing to bet that if they saw a video of an extremely drunk or drugged (and therefore non-resisting and non-combative) woman having sex, they would conclude that the sex was consensual. > > I’m not discounting the possibility that the woman simply lied. The Hofstra case, and some other over the years, shows that this does sometimes happen. But right now, when the authorities i’m being asked to trust in this case are the the Dubai authorities, i’m not willing to grant full credence to their interpretation of events without further evidence. Frankly, i’d need to see the video myself, although i understand that this is unlikely to happen. A penalty would be prison time, for telling a lie would have destroyed several men’s lives. It would have deprived them of their freedom for several years, ruined their reputations, deprived them of the educational credentials they were earning, and made it impossible for them to get any employment beyond the most menial. Mandated therapy, to help this sociopath manage her psychosis is in no way a meaningful penalty. And few hundred hours of community service is the kind of sentence given to first offense drunk drivers and graffiti vandals. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/44 "2016-11-26T16:38:17Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > A penalty would be prison time, for telling a lie would have destroyed several men’s lives. It would have deprived them of their freedom for several years, ruined their reputations, deprived them of the educational credentials they were earning, and made it impossible for them to get any employment beyond the most menial. > > Mandated therapy, to help this sociopath manage her psychosis is in no way a meaningful penalty. And few hundred hours of community service is the kind of sentence given to first offense drunk drivers and graffiti vandals. Thanks for confirming exactly what i said: there was a penalty, just not one that pleases you. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/45 "2016-11-26T17:11:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > From another thread: and this wasn’t you? > [@What do you think about recording sex sessions?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-you-think-about-recording-sex-sessions/567602/33): > > And [one study](http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html) indicates that half of all accusations are false. I don’t know how things are in America, but over here an accusation of rape is incredibly serious. The guy will likely lose his job. And mud sticks. Oh, wait. You just dragged up some random cite on the Internet because you didn’t believe it was true. Got it. You seem to have neglected the point that if the woman was indeed intoxicated beyond the ability to give legal consent then it would have been rape. That video, which you love so much, would have been evidence against the two people. Or is that the point of your OP and just you left out the word “DOESN’T” somewhere along the line? I looks forward to your two-word rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/46 "2016-11-26T17:27:56Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > and this wasn’t you?Oh, wait. You just dragged up some random cite on the Internet because you didn’t believe it was true. I was using an extreme example to make a point. > [@](#): > > You seem to have neglected the point that if the woman was indeed intoxicated There is no indication in any report I have read of the woman being intoxicated. What other details have you invented? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/47 "2016-11-26T17:52:27Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I was using an extreme example to make a point. So you post things which you don’t believe in order to win arguments? Can’t see how to have a discussion in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/48 "2016-11-26T19:17:01Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > So you post things which you don’t believe in order to win arguments? > > Can’t see how to have a discussion in that case. The first step is to define what the argument is. Is it: Do false accusations happen? Is it: With what frequency do false accusations occur? Is it: What public policy should be in effect for handling rape accusations? Is it: should non-consensual recording of sex acts be permitted in order to guard against false accusations of sexual assault? Is it: something else? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/49 "2016-11-26T19:44:06Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I was using an extreme example to make a point. > > There is no indication in any report I have read of the woman being intoxicated. What other details have you invented? If you’re talking about the cite you provided in your OP, it clearly states that she was drinking in the bar with the men before the incident. That would be your cite providing the indication. No one is inventing details. > [@Bricker](#): > > The first step is to define what the argument is. > > Is it: Do false accusations happen? > > Is it: With what frequency do false accusations occur? > > Is it: What public policy should be in effect for handling rape accusations? > > Is it: should non-consensual recording of sex acts be permitted in order to guard against false accusations of sexual assault? > > Is it: something else? **Bricker** - excellent questions. I believe, when this thread started, it was “something else”. The intention was to demonstrate that men had better tape sexual encounters to protect themselves, because lookee here, the video saved them! The example provided was, unfortunately for the OP, from Dubai (which has different laws regarding rape), from the Daily Mail (which is regarded as a questionable source), involved drinking (bringing into question the ability of the woman to consent), and so on, and therefore not the sterling cite the OP imagined. Now all of the other questions have been raised, as they often are whenever a sexual assault thread is posted. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/50 "2016-11-26T21:00:46Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > If you’re talking about the cite you provided in your OP, it clearly states that she was drinking in the bar with the men before the incident. Really? It says that the men were boozing, not her. > [@](#): > > Friends of the woman accused Harris and Butlin of ‘sunbathing and boozing’ after the ‘selfie’ taken at a beach club was published. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/51 "2016-11-26T21:23:50Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > **Bricker** - excellent questions. I believe, when this thread started, it was “something else”. It seems to me that OP feels a strong urge to say “I told you so”, but knows that specifying exactly what he is telling us might lead to annoying counterarguments and weaken his position. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/52 "2016-11-26T21:26:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? It says that the men were boozing, not her. Well, the Daily Mail being what it is, seems to leave a bit to be desired journalistically. If you read down on one of the photo captions, it does say she was drinking with them. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/53 "2016-11-26T21:32:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, the Daily Mail being what it is, seems to leave a bit to be desired journalistically. If you read down on one of the photo captions, it does say she was drinking with them. Yes, and unlike the article’s comment on the men, the article specifically doesn’t say that she was drinking alcohol, nor - even if she were - that she was drunk or intoxicated. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/54 "2016-11-26T21:34:28Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It seems to me that OP feels a strong urge to say “I told you so.” And in this you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/55 "2016-11-26T21:40:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Yes, and unlike the article’s comment on the men, the article specifically doesn’t say that she was drinking alcohol, nor - even if she were - that she was drunk or intoxicated. Certainly the conclusion that she was intoxicated could not be reasonably inferred from that article or the captions. (Re-reading, the article itself does say she “went for a drink” with the men, but you’re correct that alcohol is not specified.) ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/56 "2016-11-26T21:47:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? It says that the men were boozing, not her. It says this: > [@](#): > > ‘Over the moon’: Thai boxer Butlin and his cousin Harris, from the West Midlands, were **drinking with the woman** in a hotel bar. She later alleged to police that she had been attacked by the men in a hotel room and that the alleged rape had been recorded on a mobile phone > > Read more: [Men cleared of sex attack on married British woman in Dubai reveal their relief | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3967686/We-ve-branded-gang-rapists-no-evidence-whatsoever-Two-men-cleared-sex-attack-married-British-woman-Dubai-reveal-relief-case-collapses-free-fly-home.html#ixzz4R9b3fXLz) > Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook bolding mine You asked what indications we had that she might be intoxicated, not where it said that she was intoxicated. My indication is that she was drinking in a bar. Frankly, the fact that you’re splitting hairs that they were boozing but you don’t know for certain what she was drinking is a bit extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/57 "2016-11-26T21:48:37Z")
Yes, indeed it does. Note that the paragraph you quote does not specify alcohol, nor intoxication. Unlike the paragraph I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/58 "2016-11-26T22:00:30Z")
I answered your question. You have moved your goal posts. Enjoy your thread. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/59 "2016-11-26T22:08:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Yes, and unlike the article’s comment on the men, the article specifically doesn’t say that she was drinking alcohol, nor - even if she were - that she was drunk or intoxicated. It is definitely true that we can draw no reasonable inferences about whether or not she was intoxicated. But i think that the odds are pretty good that she was drinking at least some alcohol. When people are described as drinking together, and the location specified is a bar, then i think that the odds are generally pretty good that alcohol is involved. Not always, but the balance of probabilities is in favor of it. Anyway, my main takeaway from this thread is that the OP considers the Daily Mail a reliable news source, and the Dubai police a reliable assessor of consensual sex and of a woman’s responsibility in a sexual assault case. That, by itself, is all useful information for evaluating his contributions in future discussions. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930/60 "2016-11-27T02:05:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There is no indication in any report I have read of the woman being intoxicated. What other details have you invented? Let’s see. You post things you don’t believe. You trust the Daily Mail. You create a gloating OP which completely fails to support the argument you are – NOT – making and then you don’t research your subject. So, when you fail to do your homework, it’s others who are “inventing” things, right? It couldn’t possibly be that people actually do homework before they start and argue in good faith, right? From your [favorite source](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3951698/British-woman-arrested-sex-outside-marriage-rape-claim-comforted-sex-attack-victim-Apprentice-star-Selina-Waterman-Smith.html). > [@](#): > > Legal sources said all three Britons, who are receiving assistance from the Foreign Office, could face up to a year in prison. > > They face a charge of consensual sex outside marriage and also of being drunk, which is illegal in Dubai even though consuming alcohol is not. It really sucks when an OP goes tits up, doesn’t it? > [@Bricker](#): > > The first step is to define what the argument is. Then the second step to to publicly proclaim that it’s impossible to argue a case without being personally attacked, send a PM with a weak-ass example and publicly declare victory. Works for me. > [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > **Bricker** - excellent questions. I believe, when this thread started, it was “something else”. The intention was to demonstrate that men had better tape sexual encounters to protect themselves, because lookee here, the video saved them! Haste makes waste. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-men-cleared-of-rape-by-recording/772930.md?page=4)