# two monaco questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060 "2005-04-06T17:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060/41 "2005-04-07T17:55:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It would be more accurate to say that the Kingdom of Sardinia swallowed up the rest of the Italian states to become the Kingdom of Italy, but that’s a minor nit to pick. My wording was actually influenced by a further complication, which is that the House of Savoy was always in two minds as to whether they and their kingdom were French or Italian. The political, cultural and dynastic connections between the French and the Savoy royal families had been very strong during the eighteenth century. In fact, one could argue that the Savoys are just another example of a sovereign dynasty on the edge of France whose lands might well, under other circumstances, have become incorporated into France. Indeed, some of their lands were. Not that the Savoys would have had any hesitation in pointing out that they were in a completely different league to small fry like the Grimaldis. There is thus indeed a sense in which the House of Savoy decided in 1859-61 that their kingdom should _become_ part of Italy and that they should reinvent themselves as being purely Italian. (Their subjects were another matter - many of them thought of themselves as being Italian already.) This is what makes their decision to give up Savoy, Nice and Monaco so interesting. Although there were other, more immediate factors involved, it was about defining where exactly Italy ended and France began in a way that had never been clear-cut in the past. To gain the kingdom of Italy, they found themselves dividing their existing kingdom, losing their ancestral heartlands in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060/42 "2005-04-07T19:03:05Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Or by a sheriff (at least in Britain and the US – and I do know that sheriffs have different roles in the two countries, but they run counties in both countries). Actually, a sheriff originally ran a shire (sheriff = shire reeve). Now, of course, “shire” and “county” are used interchangeably, but they come from different origins. ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060/43 "2005-04-08T15:57:11Z")
> [@colibri](#): > > **JerH** actually said that the throne would pass to Albert’s sisters if he died without issue, and I have seen at least one news article that implied this as well - although others have suggested that the throne, as you say, would pass to his nephew. I haven’t seen anything, however, that spells this out clearly. … So what’s the real story? If Albert dies, does Caroline become a ruling Princess, or does Andrea become Prince? > [@Cunctator](#): > > The obituaries for Prince Rainier say that his mother (Princess Charlotte of Monaco) renounced her rights to the throne in order to allow Rainier to succeed his grandfather directly. So presumably Caroline would have to do something similar if the throne were to pass directly from Prince Albert to his nephew Andrea. I got the answer straight from the Constitution as amended in 2002 (here: [Monaco](http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/monaco.htm#const) ), translated from the French by the website author: \*Article 10: The succession to the throne, opened by death or abdication, takes place [within the] direct and legitimate issue of the reigning prince, by order of primogeniture with priority given to males within the same degree of kinship. **In the absence of direct legitimate issue, the succession passes to the brothers and sisters of the reigning prince and their direct legitimate descendants** , by order of primogeniture with priority given to males within the same degree of kinship. If the heir who would have acceded by virtue of the preceding paragraphs is deceased or has renounced before the succession became open, the succession passes to his own direct legitimate descendants, by order of primogeniture with priority given to males within the same degree of kinship…\* (Clarification in first paragraph & emphasis in second added by **me** ) … which is what **JerH** told us. Note that this abrogates the rights of adopted children which were still extant in the 1962 Constitution (see below). Neither Constitution makes any provision for natural/illegitimate children to succeed; but this can be rectified because Monegasque law allows for natural children to be legitimized by the marriage of their parents (a not-uncommon notion). However, other Articles indicate that succession takes place _immediately_ upon the death or abdication of the current ruler and that an heir can abdicate his/her rights prior to that time. So, if Caroline has not yet abdicated her rights in favor of her son Andrea Casiraghi, then she is currently Albert’s heir and would become Princess immediately after him. If she has abdicated already, then Andrea is Albert’s heir. The question is: which is it? On one hand, what I heard on the radio the other morning suggests that the latter arrangement for the succession had already been made; in fact, it is reasonable to presume that the Constitution was amended in 2002 precisely to allow this, as the Grimaldis would have seen this coming. On the other hand, an order of succession further down the same webpage linked above places Caroline first (followed by her four children, then Stephanie and her two children). The site has clearly been updated since Rainier’s death as the author refers to Albert as “Albert II”. Compare the foregoing to the 1962 version of Article 10: _Article 10: The succession to the throne, when opened by death or abdication, takes place within the direct and legitimate descent of the reigning Prince, by primogeniture, with precedence of males within the same degree of kinship. In the absence of a legitimate descendant, the adopted child or the legitimate descendants thereof are able to succeed._ _i.e._ only direct descendants; no inheritance by siblings or collateral lines. ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060/44 "2005-04-08T17:15:43Z")
One way or another, it appears likely that one of Princess Caroline’s children will one day grace the throne of Monaco. Let’s assume it will be Andrea. Question: will he keep his surname of Casiraghi or will he change it to Grimaldi? One is tempted to draw a comparison to the recently departed Rainier III, who inherited the throne from Louis II through his mother Charlotte, Louis’s daughter. While Charlotte was married to Pierre de Polignac, Rainier appears to have been called “Rainier Grimaldi” his entire life. (His older sister Antoinette was also considered a Grimaldi, at least until 1951 when Rainier changed her surname to _de Massy_ by royal decree; but under the older constitution, she and her family no longer held a place in Rainier’s succession anyway.) It’s understandable why Rainier was given the Grimaldi name: born a little less than year after Louis II’s succession in 1922, he would have been acknowledged as an eventual if not immediate successor to Louis – Charlotte did not renounce her rights in favor of Rainier until June 1944 – from the moment of his birth. But what happens now? The question is not entirely pointless, as one of the Grimaldis’ claims to fame is that of being the longest ruling dynasty in Europe. A Casiraghi Prince of Monaco would bring this to an end. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-monaco-questions/298060.md?page=2)