# Two NFL Football Q's from a Novice **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 14, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839 "2019-12-14T02:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/21 "2019-12-14T21:08:53Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > I don’t believe this to be true. According to Wiki, the receiving team may call for a fair catch on a kickoff. ([Fair catch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_catch)) I know not to trust Wiki completely, but this one seems so specific I do believe it. Therefore if the kicker tries to pop the ball into the air, a receiver could signal for a fair catch and no one on the kicking team would be allowed to catch the ball in the air “interfering with the fair catch”. I do believe that rule cite to be accurate, and it’s probably a good reason why the chip shot onside kick isn’t used often. OTOH, it also relies on the special teams coach for the receiving team making sure that his players know that, if they see a pop-up kick, to signal for a fair catch, but that shouldn’t be a hard bit of coaching. I was relying on my memory of onside kicks over the years, and watching a few go out of bounds while still in the air. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/22 "2019-12-14T21:14:30Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I do believe that rule cite to be accurate, and it’s probably a good reason why the chip shot onside kick isn’t used often. OTOH, it also relies on the special teams coach for the receiving team making sure that his players know that, if they see a pop-up kick, to signal for a fair catch, but that shouldn’t be a hard bit of coaching. They just need to call for a fair catch on every onside kick (once it obviously is). There would be no penalty if the kick bounced, the fair catch just wouldn’t apply. And the fair catch signaler needn’t be the one who catches it (or evem tries). I’ve often seen fair catch signals given only to have the one signalling step out of the way hoping the ball (punt in this case) going into the end zone. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/23 "2019-12-15T19:30:25Z")
1. Hey, thanks all. Good conversation here with lots of details and examples from similar situations you can recall over years of watching NFL football. 2. Two more questions come to mind: a) For a two-point conversion attempt, what yardline becomes the line of scrimmage? …barring any penalties that would move the ball further from the endzone, that is. And, for that matter, from what yardline is a one-point conversion kicked? (Perhaps, it is the same yardline for either conversion?) b) I keep failing to note this myself, but does 2nd OR 4th quarter begin with play resuming at the same yardline where play just ended when the clock ran out, only now possession of the ball switches to the once-defending team? Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/24 "2019-12-15T19:56:49Z")
**For a two-point conversion attempt, what yardline becomes the line of scrimmage? \*\* The 2 yard line for a 2 pt. conversion, 15 yard line for a PAT (for a 33 yard kick). \*\* Does 2nd OR 4th quarter begin with play resuming at the same yardline where play just ended when the clock ran out, only now possession of the ball switches to the once-defending team?** Possession does not change hands at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarter. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/25 "2019-12-15T20:15:11Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > \*\*For a two-point conversion attempt, what yardline becomes the line of scrimmage? \*\* > The 2 yard line for a 2 pt. conversion, 15 yard line for a PAT (for a 33 yard kick). Just to note that the latter is a recent change to the NFL rules. Prior to 2015, conversions were always tried from the 2-yard-line, regardless of whether they were for one point (via kick) or two points (via a play from scrimmage). However, PAT kicks had become close to automatic – in 2014, 99.3% of all one-point conversions were successful (1230 attempts, 1222 successes). As the PAT kick had become essentially boring and anti-climactic, the NFL moved the line of scrimmage back to the 15 yard line beginning in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/26 "2019-12-15T20:15:30Z")
At the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, the teams change the direction they’re moving down the field, so as to equalize any benefits one side might have from things like wind direction or the sun being in one team’s eyes. But aside from effectively giving a free timeout, that’s all that happens at those times. If you’re on a drive deep into your opponent’s territory at the end of the first quarter, you’ll still be deep in your opponent’s territory and continuing your drive at the start of the 2nd. On the other hand, everything (except the score, of course) resets at halftime, and you start over with a new kickoff in the 3rd quarter. So you’d better get done whatever you’re doing before the end of the half. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/27 "2019-12-15T20:15:44Z")
At the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, the teams change the direction they’re moving down the field, so as to equalize any benefits one side might have from things like wind direction or the sun being in one team’s eyes. But aside from effectively giving a free timeout, that’s all that happens at those times. If you’re on a drive deep into your opponent’s territory at the end of the first quarter, you’ll still be deep in your opponent’s territory and continuing your drive at the start of the 2nd. On the other hand, everything (except the score, of course) resets at halftime, and you start over with a new kickoff in the 3rd quarter. So you’d better get done whatever you’re doing before the end of the half. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/28 "2019-12-16T15:26:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This has happened a couple of times before in the NFL, both times because of a mental error by the receiving team. > > First time was a few years ago, Bills-Jets game. The Jets kicked the ball deep downfield but the Bills, for whatever reason, just stared at the ball bouncing about on the field for a few moments without doing anything. Then suddenly realization hit them and they tried to grab the ball but it was too late, a Jets player had already snatched it by then. It was in the Bills’ end zone, so it was a touchdown, I believe. Note that the touchback rule changed 2 seasons ago. If the kickoff reaches the endzone without being touched by a member of the receiving team, it’s an automatic touchback and the receiving team get the ball at the 25. That’s why you see returners just letting the ball land in the endzone if they don’t think it’s worth returning. It used to be they had to catch it & take a knee to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/29 "2019-12-16T16:35:41Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Note that the touchback rule changed 2 seasons ago. If the kickoff reaches the endzone without being touched by a member of the receiving team, it’s an automatic touchback and the receiving team get the ball at the 25. That’s why you see returners just letting the ball land in the endzone if they don’t think it’s worth returning. It used to be they had to catch it & take a knee to be safe. Prior to that change the Jets scored a touchdown against the Bills because they made a short kickoff, the ball dribbled into the end zone untouched by the Bills, and a Jet scooped it up and it was counted as a score. [Jets recovered their own accidental onside kick for a touchdown - SBNation.com](https://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/1/14140452/jets-onside-kick-touchdown-bills)? If that happened this year it would have just been a touchback. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/30 "2019-12-16T16:37:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought there was a rule that said a player can intentionally go to ground and end the play, even if no opposing player has touched him. It’s rarely used but in some situations it’s better to end the play and guarantee possession of the ball rather than try to keep moving and take a chance of losing possession. In addition to the situations mentioned above, there is also the quarterback slide. A quarterback running with the ball who slides feet first is considered down even if no one touches him. This is done to lower the risk of injury. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/31 "2019-12-16T17:47:23Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It’s a bit more nuanced than that: > > - For the receiving team, it’s a live ball, and can be recovered, from the moment it’s kicked. > - For the kicking team, while it’s a live ball the moment it’s kicked, they cannot legally _recover_ the ball until it’s traveled upfield 10 yards – that is, if it’s kicked from the 35 yard line, the offense cannot legally recover the ball until it reaches the 45 yard line. > - The ball is “live” once it’s kicked, and does not have to touch the ground to become live. > > And, onside kicks aren’t necessarily _always_ on the ground, though that’s typical (with, as you note, the kicking team usually trying for a big hop into the air). Another strategy for onside kicks is for the kicker to pop the ball up into the air, just a bit longer than 10 yards downfield, with the hopes that a teammate can run under it and snatch it out of the air before a member of the receiving team can. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Too late to edit: > > Note that this means that, although the receiving team can be no closer than 10 yards from the yard line from which the ball is kicked up until the moment of the kick, they do not need to _stay_ that far back. They can, and do, move forward once the ball is kicked, and they can recover the ball before it travels 10 yards. > > Also: the reason the “bouncing on the ground” onside kick has become the norm is, I think, because it’s harder to place a kick in the air (the “chip shot”) where you want it, without it going out of bounds, which gives the receiving team the ball at that point. One more thing to add to this. The kicking team can recover the ball as soon as is touched by the receiving team, even if it hasn’t gone ten yards yet. So the receiving team might not try to recover it if they don’t think it will go ten yards, because if they try to grab it everyone’s going to dive on it. This actually happened in the Rams/Cowboys game yesterday. The Rams kicked an onside kick that slowly rolled ten yards. Players from both sides surrounded it but didn’t touch it until it crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/32 "2019-12-16T18:00:44Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > In addition to the situations mentioned above, there is also the quarterback slide. A quarterback running with the ball who slides feet first is considered down even if no one touches him. This is done to lower the risk of injury. That’s usually called “giving himself up” when a QB does this. He’s considered down at the point where he begins the slide, no matter where he ends up (so he can’t slide out of bounds to stop the clock) and if he loses the ball in the process it doesn’t matter because he’s already down and the play is dead. Also, the defense isn’t allowed to make contact, though incidental contact is often unavoidable, especially if the defender is trying to tackle prior to the slide, and if the defender tries to avoid contact it’s usually overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/33 "2019-12-17T01:52:42Z")
In the only NFL I ever saw live, the Cardinals kicked off to the Eagles. The Eagles receiver was watching the ball head towards the sideline around the 15 and decided to let it bounce out. A Cardinal player scooped it up and waltzed into the end zone. This happened in Shibe Park. Bonus question: what team was the Cardinals? The Chicago Cardinals. The game was, I think, in 1948. They moved to St. Louis after the 1959 season Incidentally, in Canadian football, any punt can be recovered by the kicker, along with anyone behind the kicker or who is passed by the kicker as he runs downfield. As a result, the receiving team cannot lit the ball roll dead, but must field it. I don’t know the history but I conjecture that this must have been once true in American football and the onside kick is just a vestige of the old rule. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/34 "2019-12-17T05:48:24Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > In the only NFL I ever saw live, the Cardinals kicked off to the Eagles. The Eagles receiver was watching the ball head towards the sideline around the 15 and decided to let it bounce out. A Cardinal player scooped it up and waltzed into the end zone… This makes me wonder when they put in the rule that the kicking team can’t advance their own kick without it being possessed by the return team first. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/35 "2019-12-17T07:12:24Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > That’s usually called “giving himself up” when a QB does this. He’s considered down at the point where he begins the slide, no matter where he ends up (so he can’t slide out of bounds to stop the clock) and if he loses the ball in the process it doesn’t matter because he’s already down and the play is dead. > > Also, the defense isn’t allowed to make contact, though incidental contact is often unavoidable, especially if the defender is trying to tackle prior to the slide, and if the defender tries to avoid contact it’s usually overlooked. Carson Wentz once faked a QB slide while playing against the Redskins in order to fool their defenders into giving up pursuit momentarily on him, which then allowed him to sneak by and continue running for additional yards on them. It caused considerable anger and I don’t know if he’s done it again since. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/36 "2019-12-17T08:13:35Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > That’s usually called “giving himself up” when a QB does this. He’s considered down at the point where he begins the slide, no matter where he ends up (so he can’t slide out of bounds to stop the clock) I guess you didn’t see the Oakland game Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/37 "2019-12-17T14:48:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Carson Wentz once faked a QB slide while playing against the Redskins in order to fool their defenders into giving up pursuit momentarily on him, which then allowed him to sneak by and continue running for additional yards on them. It caused considerable anger and I don’t know if he’s done it again since. “Fake” slides are supposed to be officiated as the same as the real thing. But officials are apt to err on the side of not stopping plays. It’s in the best interests of QBs not to fake anyway. It encourages defenders to take the 15 if fakes are allowed, which defeats the purpose of protecting the QB. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/38 "2019-12-17T15:56:57Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > This makes me wonder when they put in the rule that the kicking team can’t advance their own kick without it being possessed by the return team first. On a kickoff, they can still advance the kick, as it’s a live ball. They just can’t recover it in the end zone now, as it’s a dead ball once it crosses the goal line. And on a punt, a kicking team doesn’t need the other team to possess the ball to recover it, they just need the receiving team to touch it. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/39 "2019-12-17T16:27:47Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > On a kickoff, they can still advance the kick, as it’s a live ball. I don’t think that this is correct, at least not in the NFL. My understanding has always been that, while the kicking team can recover the ball on a kickoff once it’s gone ten yards, if they do successfully gain possession of the ball, they cannot advance it, and the play is blown dead at that spot. [From the NFL’s rules on kicks](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/9_Rule6_Free_Kicks.pdf) (PDF): > [@](#): > > The ball is dead if it is caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team. If the catch or recovery is legal, the ball belongs to the kicking team at the dead-ball spot. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839/40 "2019-12-17T16:52:56Z")
Thanks. I think I misread his post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-football-qs-from-a-novice/844839.md?page=3)