# Two NFL questions **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 27, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556 "2019-10-27T19:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/1 "2019-10-27T19:10:20Z")
I guess these could be in GQ, but since they relate to football, I put it here. 1. Can there be a situation where "half the distance to the goal: makes it so that you’d rather have a 10 yard penalty called against your opponent than a 15 yard one? That is, you’d gain more yards with the shorter penalty? 2. What’s the furthest “and goal” situation ever? That is, has there ever been a nth and goal at the offense’s 49 yard line? Further back? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/2 "2019-10-27T19:57:13Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > 1. What’s the furthest “and goal” situation ever? I haven’t had much luck finding this for the NFL. But here’s a 2017 case from the NCAA: [Louisiana Tech third and goal from their own 7-yard line](https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2017-09-09/watch-louisiana-tech-lined-third-down-and-goal-93-yards-end-zone) (93 yards to go). ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/3 "2019-10-27T20:09:44Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > 1. Can there be a situation where "half the distance to the goal: makes it so that you’d rather have a 10 yard penalty called against your opponent than a 15 yard one? That is, you’d gain more yards with the shorter penalty? No. Here’s the relevant rule: > [@NFL Rules](#): > > If a distance penalty, enforced from a specific spot between the goal lines would place the ball more than half the distance to the offender’s goal line, the penalty shall be half the distance from that spot to their goal line. IOW, half the distance is always the upper limit of a distance penalty. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/4 "2019-10-27T22:54:30Z")
So, if you’re at the 15 yard line, a ten or fifteen yard penalty would both be 7.5 yards, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/5 "2019-10-27T23:03:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, if you’re at the 15 yard line, a ten or fifteen yard penalty would both be 7.5 yards, I guess. Yes, that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/6 "2019-10-27T23:04:06Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, if you’re at the 15 yard line, a ten or fifteen yard penalty would both be 7.5 yards, I guess. Correct. You don’t get the option of choosing between two penalties for your opponent to receive. It’s going to be half the distance to the goal either way. What this means, practically speaking, is that some penalties become useless. If you are at your own 1-yard line, for instance, and you commit a false start or delay of game, you’ll just get pushed back a few inches, and then a few millimeters, and then on and on. etc. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/7 "2019-10-27T23:19:44Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, if you’re at the 15 yard line, a ten or fifteen yard penalty would both be 7.5 yards, I guess. Yes. And, further, if you’re at your opponent’s 20 yard line, or inside of it, a 10-yard penalty and a 15-yard penalty against your opponent will result in the same amount of penalty yardage. Outside of your opponent’s 20 yard line, the 15-yard penalty will always result in more penalty yardage than the 10-yard penalty. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/8 "2019-10-27T23:23:47Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I haven’t had much luck finding this for the NFL. > > But here’s a 2017 case from the NCAA: [Louisiana Tech third and goal from their own 7-yard line](https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2017-09-09/watch-louisiana-tech-lined-third-down-and-goal-93-yards-end-zone) (93 yards to go). Just looked at the article and the video. I was thinking that it would be as result of penalties, but that was epic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/9 "2019-10-27T23:34:05Z")
Zeno’s Penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/10 "2019-10-27T23:54:09Z")
One quirky aspect of the half-the-distance rule: Suppose on one play a team commits a penalty and on the next the other team commits an equal penalty (both, say, 15 yards): On most of the field, this causes the ball to end up in the same place as before the two penalties. Seems fair: two equal penalties yield no net change. But close to a goal line, this is not the case. And the resulting spot will differ depending on which team commits the first penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/11 "2019-10-28T00:43:03Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But close to a goal line, this is not the case. And the resulting spot will differ depending on which team commits the first penalty. I don’t believe this is true. In general, offsetting penalties offset with a replay of downs, neither penalty is enforced. If there are a 15 yard and a 5 yard penalty on opposing teams, the 15 yard is enforced but the actual yardage marked off doesn’t factor into it. I don’t believe the timing of the penalties factors in at all, unless the ball changes possession during the play. That’s the NFL, it may be different in college. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/12 "2019-10-28T01:04:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I don’t believe this is true. In general, offsetting penalties offset with a replay of downs, neither penalty is enforced. If there are a 15 yard and a 5 yard penalty on opposing teams, the 15 yard is enforced but the actual yardage marked off doesn’t factor into it. I don’t believe the timing of the penalties factors in at all, unless the ball changes possession during the play. > > That’s the NFL, it may be different in college. I think that Xema was referring to penalties on subsequent plays, not offsetting on the same play: > [@Xema](#): > > Suppose on one play a team commits a penalty and on the next the other team commits an equal penalty (both, say, 15 yards) (emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/13 "2019-10-28T01:15:13Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I haven’t had much luck finding this for the NFL. > > But here’s a 2017 case from the NCAA: [Louisiana Tech third and goal from their own 7-yard line](https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2017-09-09/watch-louisiana-tech-lined-third-down-and-goal-93-yards-end-zone) (93 yards to go). So… did they score? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/14 "2019-10-28T02:38:27Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > One quirky aspect of the half-the-distance rule: > > Suppose on one play a team commits a penalty and on the next the other team commits an equal penalty (both, say, 15 yards): On most of the field, this causes the ball to end up in the same place as before the two penalties. Seems fair: two equal penalties yield no net change. > > But close to a goal line, this is not the case. And the resulting spot will differ depending on which team commits the first penalty. This is absolutely correct. Consider this situation: Chiefs have the ball first and ten on their own twenty yard line. On the play, they commit a personal foul penalty. That’s a 15-yard penalty, but the enforcement is half the distance. So now they have the ball first and twenty on their own 10 yard line. On the ensuing play, the Packers commit a personal foul penalty. The enforcement is 15 yards, so now the Chiefs have the ball first down on their own 25. However, if the Packers committed the first foul, then the ball would have been spotted at the 35. If the Chiefs are flagged for the foul on the next play, the ball would move back to the original spot, which is the 20. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/15 "2019-10-29T03:54:57Z")
FYI, the ‘half yard line’ is really the extent of penalty yardage, either way. I remember some offensive coordinator throwing a quick tantrum when backed up, knowing the unsportsmanlike conduct wouldn’t cost him much. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/16 "2019-10-29T17:38:41Z")
There is a situation where a “lesser” penalty can gain you more yards, spot fouls. Lesser here is a bit of a debatable concept, but one could argue that a 15-yard personal foul is the most severe penalty that exists (setting aside disqualifications) and it would account for a half-the-distance foul inside the 30. Spot fouls however, like DPI and intentional grounding could result in the ball being placed at the 1 yard line. Also, holding or intentional grounding in the end zone is a automatic Safety which is undeniably worse than a offensive personal found on say their own 2 yard line. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/17 "2019-10-29T17:55:43Z")
1. I don’t even understand this question. The greater the penalty, the closer you get to the goal line with “half the distance”. Why would you ever want a lesser penalty? 2. I saw a 4th and 57 yards to go once in a game a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/18 "2019-10-29T17:58:28Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The greater the penalty, the closer you get to the goal line with “half the distance”. Er … no. On the 8-yard line, any distance penalty - 5, 10 or 15 yards - puts the ball on the 4-yard line. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/19 "2019-10-29T18:10:31Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > 1. I don’t even understand this question. The greater the penalty, the closer you get to the goal line with “half the distance”. Why would you ever want a lesser penalty? If the ball is on the 12 yard line and you get a 10 yard penalty one possible interpretation is that the ball would get placed on the 2 yard line, whereas with a 15 yard penalty the ball would go to the 6 yard line (half the distance). But that’s not the way it works. In both cases the ball would go to the 6 yard line. We were clarifying this to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556/20 "2019-10-29T18:37:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If the ball is on the 12 yard line and you get a 10 yard penalty one possible interpretation is that the ball would get placed on the 2 yard line, whereas with a 15 yard penalty the ball would go to the 6 yard line (half the distance). But that’s not the way it works. In both cases the ball would go to the 6 yard line. We were clarifying this to the OP. I assume a 5 yard penalty would be the same. (Assuming that the ball is on the offense’s 12 yard line and they have a false start.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-nfl-questions/842556.md?page=2)