# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/201 "2010-05-14T19:37:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > But I did experience the divine. How can you know whether I did or not? If I am nuts, then you must be omniscient. Tell me what I ate for breakfast. When you are traveling in the desert, you experience the sight of an oasis. But you had better get your feet wet before you pour out the water in your canteen. Ever try to confirm your experience in a way which would falsify the hypothesis that it is a delusion? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/202 "2010-05-14T20:02:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Jesus. Side order of Holy Spirit. Now that is illogical sir. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/203 "2010-05-14T20:05:04Z")
1. Yes. 2. No. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/204 "2010-05-14T20:05:36Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > **lekatt** , if we followed your logic there’d be nobody in insane asylums. > > “But how do YOU know that I’m not speaking to John Kennedy’s ghost?” > > When I say that I think you’re insane, I don’t mean that as an insult, I mean that literally. I wouldn’t know whether or not you are talking to JFK’s ghost. Should that bother me? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/205 "2010-05-14T20:09:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > When you are traveling in the desert, you experience the sight of an oasis. But you had better get your feet wet before you pour out the water in your canteen. Ever try to confirm your experience in a way which would falsify the hypothesis that it is a delusion? Of course, over twenty years now I have confirmed my experience. I have no hypothesis to falsify. I was there. I experience it. It happened, and I experienced it. No question about it in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/206 "2010-05-14T20:10:14Z")
I know I’m joining this discussion late, and that it has probably already spiralled into a discussion of the Greek genitive as used by Luke in his Resurrection account (or something akin), but FWIW: > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Yes, absolutely. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Yes. There are parts of faith that I miss. But no matter how warm and fuzzy and loved a belief system can make me feel, if I can’t accept it intellectually, I can’t accept it at all. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/207 "2010-05-14T20:17:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I wouldn’t know whether or not you are talking to JFK’s ghost. Should that bother me? Only if you care whether or not people with schizophrenia are hospitalized. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/208 "2010-05-14T20:22:18Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? 1. Yes to comfort. As to strength, I guess it depends on what you mean by that. Offhand I’d say no to strength. 2. Nope. Drug addicts reap certain benefits I’ll never realize, but I’m not envious of them either. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/209 "2010-05-14T20:34:04Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Only if you care whether or not people with schizophrenia are hospitalized. I am going to get called for hijack in answering your question, but I will anyway. I am one of those people that don’t believe in schizophrenia, or any of the other labels shrinks use. I once hired a “schizophrenic” right out of the mental hospital to work in my business, after his brother asked me to help him. In a couple of years he turned into the best delivery person I even had. He quit his medicine and got over his “illness” by being treated well like any other human being. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/210 "2010-05-14T20:41:06Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am one of those people that don’t believe in schizophrenia, or any of the other labels shrinks use. I think you’ll find you’ve just destroyed any shred of credibility you still have with just about anyone on the board. I’ve been in hospitals. I’ve seen mentally disturbed patients babbling and screaming at themselves. Mental illness is very real. Or are they just being attacked by demons? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/211 "2010-05-14T20:41:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am going to get called for hijack in answering your question, but I will anyway. > > I am one of those people that don’t believe in schizophrenia, or any of the other labels shrinks use. I once hired a “schizophrenic” right out of the mental hospital to work in my business, after his brother asked me to help him. In a couple of years he turned into the best delivery person I even had. He quit his medicine and got over his “illness” by being treated well like any other human being. Hunh. :dubious: Well, I am one of those people who doesn’t believe in “broken bones,” or any of the other labels doctors use. In an unrelated note, my leg hurts like hell, it’s bleeding all over the place, and I can’t walk anymore. * * * Did what I just wrote make any sense to you? Would you advise me to go to a hospital and get a cast put on my leg? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/212 "2010-05-14T21:46:44Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I think you’ll find you’ve just destroyed any shred of credibility you still have with just about anyone on the board. You need to search The Pit for **lekatt** threads. Set aside a lot of time if you want to read all of it. Or, take my advice and just walk away… ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/213 "2010-05-14T21:50:04Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Or, take my advice and just walk away… _“If you understand an obsession then you know you won’t change my mind.”_ ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/214 "2010-05-14T21:55:04Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Yes, begbert, you admitted you may be wrong. Yours is the only example I’ve found, though, with my admittedly-brief scan through the thread. > > That certainly does nothing to diminish my statement\* that you are challenging, though. > > \*(_I think the main difference between **many** of us is that I admit I may be wrong_) Actually everyone who told you they know it as strongly as they know the sun will rise in the morning was _also_ telling you that they might be wrong. (In case you happen to glance back at the thread.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/215 "2010-05-14T21:57:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Of course, over twenty years now I have confirmed my experience. I have no hypothesis to falsify. I was there. I experience it. It happened, and I experienced it. No question about it in my mind. As long as we’re hijacking the thread, nobody is disputing that you had an experience or experiences. They’re merely disputing your claim as to their provenance. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/216 "2010-05-14T22:17:27Z")
Not that the answers concern me enough to want to start a thread to seek them, but a corollary to this thread would be: 1. Do you, as a believer, accept the notion that many nonbelievers acquire some degree of strength or benefits from their lack of religious faith? 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/217 "2010-05-14T22:41:53Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Hunh. :dubious: > > Well, I am one of those people who doesn’t believe in “broken bones,” or any of the other labels doctors use. > > In an unrelated note, my leg hurts like hell, it’s bleeding all over the place, and I can’t walk anymore. > > * * * > > Did what I just wrote make any sense to you? Would you advise me to go to a hospital and get a cast put on my leg? I believe people can get to be mentally ill, and suffer terrible, puting a label on it is something else. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/218 "2010-05-15T01:55:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I believe people can get to be mentally ill, and suffer terrible, puting a label on it is something else. Yes, putting a label on mental illnesses is something else; it helps to communicate to others which mental illness one is talking about. Kinda useful. You used the label yourself to communicate to us that you hired one, even though you used scare quotes for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/219 "2010-05-15T09:32:47Z")
You’re saying that people can get mental illnesses but naming those illnesses is bad? I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/220 "2010-05-15T10:00:51Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > You’re saying that people can get mental illnesses but naming those illnesses is bad? It’s a precaution. Say “Schizophrenia” three times and it will appear! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=12)