# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/21 "2010-05-09T06:29:34Z")
1. Sure. 2. Not at all. It’s like someone who is able to walk, but spends his life using crutches. Sure, they help him get around, but he’s totally unaware that he’s really able to walk without them. There’s certainly no reason to envy him. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/22 "2010-05-09T06:30:40Z")
1. Yes 2. Yes I was talking to my stepmother on the phone once when I was a bit down in the dumps, and she said everything happens for a reason. I remember thinking how comforting it must be to believe it. That said, wanting to be comforted does not give me any faith that the underlying belief is true. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/23 "2010-05-09T06:47:18Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Yes. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Yes. I’ve always wished I could fit into the mainstream. Have mainstream tastes, beliefs, politics, viewpoints. I see perfectly normal people all around me “rebelling” and trying to be “individuals” (by doing what everybody else is doing, like getting tattoos.) Oh, to be them. Yes, yes, yes. Life must be so much easier when you believe your real reward comes after. My grandfather’s doctor told him he had brain cancer at a relatively young age (68.) He was in phenomenal shape and had centenarians in his direct lineage. He very realistically could have lived another 30+ years. Another 20 was all but guaranteed. His immediate reaction was to look at my grandmother, smile, and say, “I’m ok with this.” Oh, to have that faith! Yes, yes, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/24 "2010-05-09T07:03:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure. At least for comfort. Not so much for strength. > > None whatsoever. I feel that they are deluded and their comfort is misplaced. I am actually _grateful_ that I do not share it. Pretty much this, but sometimes I wonder if I would be happier if I were really stupid. This is only a hop skip and jump from wondering if I’d be happier because of crazy but comforting thoughts. I suppose I could make through life with the mentality of a toddler. But I would really hate it if I “woke up” sometimes and realized how foolish I was being the rest of the time. Another thing to add. I’m very comforted by the fact that I DON’T have to face some kind of mysterious judgement after my death, and that nobody’s amassing a list of the naughty people to beat up on later, or has a list of people to punish for worshipping the wrong god, or whatever other crazy-ass post-death ideas people have ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/25 "2010-05-09T11:32:04Z")
1. Of course. 2. Yes. In the sense that religion eases the inherent fear of our own mortality, and the insufferable losses that we must bear when friends and family die. Who would not want to be liberated from these torments? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/26 "2010-05-09T11:44:59Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? 1. Yes. 2. Yes. This is not a difficult revelation to cop to. I am hard wired to not believe. I never have. I am very happy with that and find meaning and strength in many places. But often I just wished I believed because it would be an easy comfort. I often wished my son used a security blankie as kid to help give him comfort, too. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/27 "2010-05-09T11:56:40Z")
Yes. Doesn’t mean I accept the reality of it though. Any person who is completely happy with their choice of religious belief, has to be a bit lacking in the whole critical judgement department. Yes. I’d love to be so dumb I didn’t question even the most ridiculous of propositions. Life would be so much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/28 "2010-05-09T12:07:55Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Sure. Varies from person to person of course, but yeah, it’s real. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Particularly during times of bereavement I’ve felt religion would have been a comfort if I’d been the kind of person who could turn to it, but I wouldn’t call it envy. I can acknowledge that it would be nice to have that kind of faith without actually desiring it for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/29 "2010-05-09T12:09:18Z")
1. Yes. 2. Not generally, no. It might help you cope with things that are beyond your control, but it also discourages you from trying to fix things that _aren’t_. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/30 "2010-05-09T12:13:43Z")
Yes. No. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/31 "2010-05-09T12:13:44Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Unquestionably yes. That doesn’t mean it’s true, of course. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No, because I believe their comfort is based on nothing. It’d be nice and comforting if I held the rather solipsistic beliefs that after death I’d be transported to some paradise with my deceased relatives or somesuch, or think that some mystic force is always watching out for me or guarding me, but I have absolutely no evidence for it. So my standard of evidence would need to be far lower to accept these false consolations. Marx puts it far better than I ever could, from his _A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right_; "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself." ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/32 "2010-05-09T12:53:48Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Yes > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Nope. And your phrasing makes it seem like you think I _should_, but am stubbornly not doing so, which is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/33 "2010-05-09T12:59:00Z")
1. Yes 2. Not really, except in the sense that sometimes I look at a little kid who is oblivious to the world around him and kind of envy his ignorance (sorry, but you asked). ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/34 "2010-05-09T13:14:10Z")
1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Yes. Although, as a social scientist, I think it is virtually impossible to know for sure what, exactly, people derive anything from. Even religious people may, in fact, derive “strength” from things like their values and morals, their loved ones, or just their habits or character. And wrongly attribute those to their faith. 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? [/QUOTE] Sure. I’d love to believe in heaven for me and punishhment for evil doers. However, faith is a total package and I don’t care for some other things in that package. Like the idea that evil exists outside of Us. Or the sexual guilt. Or the ban on intellectual curiosity. Etcetara. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/35 "2010-05-09T13:22:16Z")
1. Yes. 2. In a way, I am envious. I agree with the comparison of religion to powerful drugs that make you feel better, but not in a healthy way, but if something bad enough happened, frankly I’m probably not going to deal with it in a healthy way anyway. But unlike a drug habit, religion isn’t socially isolating or (necessarily) directly physically harmful. It’s not going to send you into a downward spiral and you’re not going to hit rock bottom. You might be able to live a long, happy life without ever having to face the truth. I was just watching a show and the (true) story was about a baby who died because of a doctor’s negligence. The mom convinced herself that her baby’s divine purpose in life had been to stop the doctor from harming other babies, and that when the medical board decided to revoke the doctor’s license, her baby was smiling down from heaven, grateful for her efforts to stop the doctor. That’s probably a lot less self-destructive than what I would do if that happened to me. And what if something even worse happened? What if your child was kidnapped, tortured, and then murdered? How can anyone possibly cope with that without some amount of self-delusion? (Aren’t I just a ray of sunshine today? But I really want to know these things.) ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/36 "2010-05-09T13:24:29Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I was talking to my stepmother on the phone once when I was a bit down in the dumps, and she said everything happens for a reason. I remember thinking how comforting it must be to believe it. That said, wanting to be comforted does not give me any faith that the underlying belief is true. You don’t have to believe in God to believe that, though. You decide what the reason is. It may not be immediately apparent, but at some point you can eventually say _that_ event led to _this_ event. It’s like that BBC series _Connections_ in which James Burke links modern technological advances to various historical events. The connections are somewhat tenuous and completely unrelated, but it makes for a fascinating exploration of history. It doesn’t necessarily turn negative events positive, but it provide some perspective to those things that seem absolutely devastating and meaningless at the time. I don’t see any reason why we can’t treat our own lives like that. It makes for a much richer experience, IMHO. As to the OP: 1. Yes. 2. No. I can’t see why I would envy someone so sure of something they couldn’t possibly know. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/37 "2010-05-09T13:59:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Any person who is completely happy with their choice of religious belief, has to be a bit lacking in the whole critical judgement department. See, I don’t think that’s a fair argument against being religious. _Everyone_ is a little lacking in the whole critical judgment department. Being irrational is a part of being human. I think the real deluded ones are the atheists who think that not being religious protects them from self-delusion. Have you never been in love? Overestimated your ability to do a task? Suffered mental illness? People are emotional and irrational by nature. It’s actually neurologically necessary for us to be so–logic doesn’t function unless we are a bit illogical as well. (See _[Descartes’ Error](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes%27_Error)_ for a good neuropsych book on this subject.) ETA: I’m not meaning to single you out, **ivan**. I’ve seen this idea posted repeatedly on these boards, far less tactfully then you have described it here, and I think it bears discussion. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/38 "2010-05-09T14:50:53Z")
1. Yes. I’ve seen people who genuinely aren’t worried about an outcome because they really believe god will help. Of course, I’ve also seen what happens when people who believe this are betrayed by their belief, and all does not turn out well. It can be horrible. 2. Eh, occasionally. When things are really bad, sometimes I think I wouldn’t mind going back to when i was a child, and I didn’t have to worry about so much stuff. God/my parents would take care of it. And then I think about the cost, and decide it definitely isn’t worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/39 "2010-05-09T14:52:12Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > … I think the real deluded ones are the atheists who think that not being religious protects them from self-delusion. … Typical religious delusion. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/40 "2010-05-09T14:57:05Z")
> [@](#): > > And your phrasing makes it seem like you think I should, but am stubbornly not doing so, which is not the case. This was not my intention. FWIW, I struggled with the phrasing. mmm [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=3)