# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/41 "2010-05-09T15:08:45Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I think the real deluded ones are the atheists who think that not being religious protects them from self-delusion. Which would be who? It just means you lack a particularly nasty form of delusion, not all delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/42 "2010-05-09T15:23:54Z")
1 - Nah, I can hype myself up fine, no need to involve mythology, thank you very much. 2 - Well, if they are not going to envy my angst and nihilism, why should I? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/43 "2010-05-09T15:27:05Z")
Without actually reading the thread first: > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Of course. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No. There is nothing to acknowledge because I have no such feelings of envy. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/44 "2010-05-09T15:41:18Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Have you never been in love? Overestimated your ability to do a task? Suffered mental illness? People are emotional and irrational by nature. What’s irrational about being in love? You think not having perfect knowledge of just how efficient one can complete a task makes one irrational? Having a mental illness is being irrational? Nonsense! Believing that there’s an all knowing being in the sky that created everything with no evidence is irrational. > [@](#): > > It’s actually neurologically necessary for us to be so–logic doesn’t function unless we are a bit illogical as well. And your cite is that someone wrote a book proposing that idea? Actually the author of the book you linked to doesn’t say that. Emotional input =/= being illogical. And being illogical does not necessarily equal being irrational. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/45 "2010-05-09T15:47:53Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Certainly. People derive strength and comfort from all manner of things, including faith. Some people derive strength and comfort from believing in conspiracy theories, for instance, while some from supposed alien visitations. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No…why should I, since I don’t feel any envy towards people who derive such feelings from faith (nor from CT’s, belief in aliens or the comfort of totalitarian governments). I feel a bit of pity for some of thing, since I feel they are misguided, but envy? Not a bit. -XT ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/46 "2010-05-09T16:10:54Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > This was not my intention. FWIW, I struggled with the phrasing. > > mmm That’s cool, then. I wouldn’t have said “willing to acknowledge”, just left it as “do you have…” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/47 "2010-05-09T16:43:16Z")
1. Yes, of course. 2. Yes and no. No because, for the most part, I have my own sources of solace and comfort. We’re happy in different ways. And yes because there are those areas which some religious people gain solace about, such as death, which I don’t. On the other hand, there are some areas which I gain solace about which some religious people don’t. I’d say taken overall i’m not envious. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/48 "2010-05-09T16:43:51Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? As written the statement is undeniably accurate. But it’s also misleading, because it’s only one part of the package. They also aquire weakness, discomforts, ignorance and fear. I believe in the final equation they’re worse off, and that’s what really matters. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? I think that was kind of a no. I don’t believe you can have one without the other, there’s nothing to envy. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/49 "2010-05-09T16:50:59Z")
1 Yes. 1. No. Why would I envy illusionary emotions? I feel good for a few minutes when UT win a football game, but it doesn’t actually improve my psychological well being. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/50 "2010-05-09T17:07:15Z")
1. I think they derive some solace from a belief in god. But ,I suspect the sane ones have some degree of doubt, so how real is it? 2. When I was a kid ,I got the feeling. But, I know you can not go back. Logic and disbelief won’t go away. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/51 "2010-05-09T17:49:12Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? I’d say _some_ believers acquire that, but a whole lot more are held back, taken advantage of, abused, and/or emotionally crippled by faith that allows others to exploit them. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? I don’t in any way envy people hiding in self-delusion. If people can use faith to become more independent and confident, great, but retreating into “God will save me!” hysteria doesn’t help anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/52 "2010-05-09T18:28:31Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? I admit to the _possibility_ that this may be the case; however, I am an agnostic on this question. Since I don’t experience the feelings of the other person, I don’t know whether they genuinely feel these things or whether they say they do in an attempt to justify themselves. Certain observable things, like the anger that people feel when their religious beliefs are challenged, may be evidence that people are insecure in their belief systems. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? I feel no envy. I am curious as to Mustard’s reaction to the responses here. Do they satisfy your curiosity? Do they lead you to draw any conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/53 "2010-05-09T19:12:57Z")
1. Do you, as a non-drug-user, accept the notion that many drug users acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from injecting heroin into their veins? 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their heroin use? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/54 "2010-05-09T20:10:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I am curious as to Mustard’s reaction to the responses here. Do they satisfy your curiosity? Do they lead you to draw any conclusions? I’m curious about this too. The OP may be surprised that most of us don’t feel envy toward religious people, but this shouldn’t come as a surprise. Like all beliefs, religious beliefs are a matter of choice; not very many people are brainwashed against their will to either believe or not believe in religion. But I think most envy is concerned with things other people have that we cannot have. It’s unusual to feel envy for something that we’ve consciously rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/55 "2010-05-09T20:49:03Z")
[http://www.jstor.org/pss/1387431](http://www.jstor.org/pss/1387431) [http://www.jstor.org/pss/1385724](http://www.jstor.org/pss/1385724) ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/56 "2010-05-09T21:37:08Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Like all beliefs, religious beliefs are a matter of choice I’m not so sure about that. I tend to believe faith is something that you either have or don’t have, and you cannot consciously change it. Time and experience can cause you to gain or lose faith, but it’s not really something you have control on. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/57 "2010-05-09T21:52:54Z")
1. Yes, though I don’t really get it. God would scare the pants off of me. 2. If we’re talking about emotional support I certainly am not convinced having the “typical” religious conviction is only positive (see answer 1). In any case, I think they’re wrong in having the conviction, so I don’t envy them any more than I envy the ability to laugh at unfunny jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/58 "2010-05-09T23:02:39Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Like all beliefs, religious beliefs are a matter of choice How well have you thought that through? That’s an extremely bold philosophical statement. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/59 "2010-05-09T23:04:39Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Sure. That seems to be obvious. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No. I’ve never needed that source of strength - I have plenty of others. I much prefer the strength I get from being logical. Plus, believers in plenty of mutually contradictory deities get this strength - it says nothing about the truth of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/60 "2010-05-09T23:08:42Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? 1.) I’ll agree with comfort. Not strength. I think that some people can find strength by chanting, “I’m a rock in the middle of a stream, I’m a rock in the middle of a stream,” or even just by humming “People Equal Shit” by Slipknot. 😃 2.) I wouldn’t say envy, more like depression. When people gather at a church, their faith isn’t benefitting them, it’s the togetherness. That type of togetherness is something us humans can draw from for inner strength WITHOUT the crutch of a superstition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=4)