# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/81 "2010-05-10T21:29:40Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? The pastor that married my wife and I asked me, “Don’t you _want_ to believe we all go a great place when we die instead of rotting in the ground like a dog?”. Wanting to believe you’ll win the lottery tomorrow doesn’t make it true and buying lotto tickets is a net loss so is actually harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/82 "2010-05-10T21:33:42Z")
So, is the OP gonna reveal the tabulation of this survey, or what? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/83 "2010-05-10T21:47:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The pastor that married my wife and I asked me, “Don’t you _want_ to believe we all go a great place when we die instead of rotting in the ground like a dog?”. > > Wanting to believe you’ll win the lottery tomorrow doesn’t make it true and buying lotto tickets is a net loss so is actually harmful. Heh, the response that popped into my mind to the pastor’s statement is “Actually no, I’m too busy wanting to believe I’m Napolean. Being Napolean would be awesome!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/84 "2010-05-10T21:50:51Z")
I woulda said, “What, you mean dogs don’t go to heaven?” ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/85 "2010-05-11T17:10:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s cool, then. I wouldn’t have said “willing to acknowledge”, just left it as “do you have…” [del]I’m willing to acknowledge[/del] I see your point. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/86 "2010-05-11T17:24:26Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I wonder if the OP is surprised or not at the answers. **Mean Mr. Mustard** , how do these responses make you feel? > > Do you envy our general lack of envy? 😉 You’re making an assumption about me based on very little information. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/87 "2010-05-11T17:35:18Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > You’re making an assumption about me based on very little information. Which you just didn’t provide, in addition to not answering the question. Are you surprised or not at these answers? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/88 "2010-05-11T17:39:55Z")
I’m agnostic. Yes on the first, no on the second. I accept that some people really do believe in their god(s) and that their religious feelings give them comfort. I don’t have those same beliefs but I don’t begrudge them theirs nor am I jealous of them in any way and I don’t feel that anything is missing from my life. Intellectually I’m curious as to why people believe (no desire to get into those reasons in your thread) but nothing has ever made me feel that I’m missing out - it always seems to come down to either “faith” or various reasons that just don’t make me a believer. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/89 "2010-05-11T17:44:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yeah, I might not always act in accordance with my moral code, but that’s because I think I can get away with it. I’ve done things that I knew were bad and made me feel bad afterwards. Sometimes short-term gratification trumps acting right. > [@](#): > > If you believe in God, then the storeclerk is always watching. If you act as though the storeclerk isn’t watching, that’s evidence that you don’t really think the storeclerk is really watching, not down deep where it counts. Maybe these homosexual anti-gay crusaders you’re talking about were struggling with trying to act against their sexuality, which as we know is very difficult. Maybe having sex with men made them feel horrible afterward, but they’re still hard-wired for it. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/90 "2010-05-11T17:53:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let me also note that if, for example, you watch TV shows like [Solitary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_(TV_series)), the people who are obviously religious do less well than the people who rely on cussedness and greed. If anything, I think there might be more evidence that faith acts as a crutch, inhibiting the formation of motivations based on real world goals – which, by being real, carry greater weight. In _Man’s Search for Meaning_, psychiatrist Victor Frankl reflected on his days as an inmate in a Nazi death camp. Among other things he noted that the ruthless psychopathic types tended to survive better at first, but as time went on it was the more religious and/or philosophical types who survived better. Research has shown that religious people live longer, have better physical and mental health, and report a higher level of contentment and happiness. I doubt that people would have evolved a capacity for religion if it had not served some survival function. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/91 "2010-05-11T17:55:50Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you believe in God, then the storeclerk is always watching. If you’re shopping for clothes, would this be God of The Gap? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/92 "2010-05-11T19:41:21Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Yes to the first. To the second I’m not sure that _envy_ is the right word for what I feel. I know it would be easier in some ways for me to deal with grief and loss if I believed in a beneficient and personal deity. But I also think that such belief is apt to cause people to believe in ways that are arrogant, foolish, and sometimes downright evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/93 "2010-05-11T20:14:53Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Which you just didn’t provide, in addition to not answering the question. Are you surprised or not at these answers? I did not provide the information, that’s correct. Are assumptions and generalizations then acceptable? Additionally, I was not even asked to provide the info before said assumption was made. Anyway… As for The Question - No, I can’t say that the answers surprised me. BTW, I wasn’t totally comfortable with the word ‘envy’ myself, but I didn’t know how else to phrase it. That’s why I preceded it with ‘any measure of’, in an effort to soften its weight. This has really been an interesting discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/94 "2010-05-11T20:24:59Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > This has really been an interesting discussion. Why do you say that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/95 "2010-05-11T20:33:47Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > This has really been an interesting discussion. It hasn’t been a discussion. Discussion requires participation from two sides. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/96 "2010-05-11T20:49:37Z")
1. Yes. 2. No (unless we deem ignorance as bliss in which case yes). ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/97 "2010-05-11T23:36:28Z")
> [@](#): > > It hasn’t been a discussion. Discussion requires participation from two sides. I count far more than two participants. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why do you say that? Because it brought up angles and analogies that I hadn’t previously considered (comparing a believer to a blind person (post #19), a child attaining adulthood ( #20) or a heroin addict (#53). Also, the number of instances where a non-believer admitted to some envy (albeit with the occasional disclaimer) (posts #5, 6, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 33, 34, 35, 38, & 72) is much higher than I might have predicted. So, as far as being surprised by the responses, I think I was too hasty in saying that I was not surprised; this did take me by surprise. Finally, because this quote (from **LonesomePolecat** post #90) gave me much to contemplate: > [@](#): > > I doubt that people would have evolved a capacity for religion if it had not served some survival function. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/98 "2010-05-11T23:45:57Z")
What, you didn’t consider my envying their capacity for unbounded evil to count? 😃 (Seriously though. Unbounded, guilt-free evil. If not for the whole being-gunned-down-by-the-cops thing it would be _perfect_.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/99 "2010-05-11T23:46:42Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I count far more than two participants. Until now, we’ve all been speaking to what seemed like an unresponsive wall. A discussion requires response, feedback, reaction. You’ve been very coy and this post is the first sign that there might be the possibility of an actual conversation. So, for you it might have been interesting, but the rest of us have been waiting for you to show your cards. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/100 "2010-05-12T01:13:30Z")
1. I’m sure that believing in eternal salvation and various other of the promises ought to make one blissfully happy. 2. Not sure if I envy people who are blissfully happy; it’s a little confusing. I want to understand the truth. Generally when I know more it may be painful but I never find myself wishing I didn’t know, except for the time I wandered into the liverwurst room at a meatpacking plant, and even that I forgot in 10 years or so. It’d feel good to think, for example, that I was spectacularly wealthy; but then I feel pity for somebody else who is so deluded. It’s a paradox in my own feelings. If I had to pick right now, I’d favor being correct over being optimistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=6)