# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/141 "2010-05-13T14:08:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Thanks for the spelling correction. But no religion encourages violence, no, not one. All major religions encourage just the opposite. > > [http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html](http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html) > > It is people that encourage violence, equally those who belong to religions and those who don’t. > > And you are right about atheists also Have you read the Bible and Qu’ran? Why don’t you answer the question on what the punishment for apostasy in Islam is? Here’s just one gem from the Bible teaching how to treat a loved one that tries to get you to convert to another religion: > [@](#): > > **Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (King James Version)** > > 6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; > > 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; > > 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: > > 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. > > 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. ---
**Author:** ![prettydorky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@prettydorky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prettydorky)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/142 "2010-05-13T14:43:18Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The nonexistence of God is a fact to exactly the same extent that the rising of the sun this morning is a fact. Both hypotheses can never be absolutely proven, but both are also the best explanation for the data (or lack of it) presented by our senses. I feel really dumb, but I don’t understand this. The rising of the sun is a hypothesis? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/143 "2010-05-13T14:47:31Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Sure! For many if not most Christians I know, that’s essentially the name of the game. No atheists in foxholes and all that. > [@](#): > > 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? Nah. I don’t want to sound condescending, but I look at it as a crutch. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s not something I need or want. I’m OK with “things happen, and they mean what we put into them”. It works better for me–no God to blame or supplicate to. I don’t begrudge that of others, though. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/144 "2010-05-13T14:47:48Z")
> [@prettydorky](#): > > I feel really dumb, but I don’t understand this. The rising of the sun is a hypothesis? So’s gravity. ---
**Author:** ![prettydorky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@prettydorky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prettydorky)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/145 "2010-05-13T15:14:36Z")
ok, that’s not really an answer, and Gravity is a theory. But ok. Not wanting to hijack this thread so I’ll go ask somewhere else about science. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/146 "2010-05-13T15:20:45Z")
Strong atheist here, late to the party. Similar answers to most: 1. yes, most definitely 2. Not really WRT 2, at times I think who is happier than the idiot in the padded room who doesn’t know his situation. And it would be easier to be in line with the majority of folk who accept this element of irrationality. But IME a good number of “believers” are hypocrites, ignorant, and otherwise unpleasant, such that I’m not dying to belong to that club. And I prefer embracing my reason rather than an appealing fiction. As others have noted, drinking, drugs, and other crutches can provide similar (at least short-term) solace. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/147 "2010-05-13T15:52:05Z")
> [@prettydorky](#): > > I feel really dumb, but I don’t understand this. The rising of the sun is a hypothesis? A very well-confirmed one, but yes, a hypothesis. You SEEM to see the sun rise every morning, but perhaps you’re living in a virtual reality simulation. Or you’re trapped in an extended hallucination. Or in some sort of Truman Show-like ruse. You can’t be \*absolutely certain \*that the sun did indeed rise. You can only hold that belief with a high degree of confidence. Our day-to-day life is based upon a set of well-supported hypotheses about the nature of the world around us. All knowledge is provisional. We believe things because they correspond with the evidence of our senses, but there’s always a slight chance that we might be wrong, even about things as concrete as the sunrise. Agnosticism is a form of special pleading because it applies a standard of proof to theological ideas that is different than the standard of proof that we use for other things. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/148 "2010-05-13T16:25:23Z")
> [@prettydorky](#): > > ok, that’s not really an answer, and Gravity is a theory. But ok. Not wanting to hijack this thread so I’ll go ask somewhere else about science. This morning you saw light; you might have looked into the sky to see the sun. But in principle a great many causes could have led to that effect. That the sun “rose” (in the sense normally understood) is just one hypothesis. The point is that agnostics tend to apply their epistemological criterion to one subject (whether or not gods exist) and not to others (e.g., whether the sun rising this morning explains its presence in the sky). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/149 "2010-05-13T16:30:13Z")
> [@prettydorky](#): > > ok, that’s not really an answer, and Gravity is a theory. But ok. Not wanting to hijack this thread so I’ll go ask somewhere else about science. This thread is already looking pretty much hijacked to sheol and back. How do you know that gravity will work on the next object you drop? How do you know that the sun will rise in the morning? How do you know there even _is_ a sun? The answer is that you’ve observed stuff, with your senses, and the senses have been reporting raw information to you that you can assemble into an image of, for example, a sun in the sky. If you hang around for a while you’ll observe this image of a sun crossing the sky, pulled by winged horses with a god riding on it. (For the last you have to squint.) Observe this long enough, day after day, and you’ll eventually conclude that there’s a pattern there, and start to _expect_ the sun to trace it’s daily course. Do this long enough, and you’ll decide that this sun-moving-thing is the _only_ way things could be - you’ll “know” it’s what’s happening. But this “knowledge” is merely the accumulated opininions you’ve developed from observing the evidence - it’s the elevation of anecdotal evidence to data. Which as we all know is fallacious - you can’t achieve absolute certainty from anecdotes, unless you have observed _all_ possible outcomes. And since we’re talking about the future here it’s impossible for you to have observed it. So absolute certainty is by definition unmerited - in theory the sun could suddenly start doing figure eights in the sky tomorrow for no apparant reason. This may force us to seriously rethink our astrological models, but it could, in theory, happen nonetheless. Technically. Similarly, people tell us when I drop a rock over my foot, it’s not going to do me the courtesy of floating in midair to save me pain. But that doesn’t mean that the rock won’t decide to buck the trend. Sure, it would be unprescedented, as it would deviate from what’s suggested by all the observations to date, but it could, theoretically happen. Similarly, all the observations to date suggest there is no god. Absent special pleading, we can think of the god question the same way we do about the floating rock question - with absolute statements based on consistent and compelling past information, despite the possibility that future information might prove us wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/150 "2010-05-13T16:36:38Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Have you read the Bible and Qu’ran? Why don’t you answer the question on what the punishment for apostasy in Islam is? Here’s just one gem from the Bible teaching how to treat a loved one that tries to get you to convert to another religion: Yes, I have read the Bible, all the way through, more than once, but the Bible is not religion. Religion is decided upon by the members of that religion. Remember Jesus said “Love your enemies.” All religions teach positive love others, but the members don’t always care what is being taught. I don’t know any Christian that would follow every sentence in the Bible. If they did they would be jailed. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/151 "2010-05-13T16:39:33Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No I don’t think it’s their beliefs in gods that bring them solace, strength or comfort. There are too many who find no comfort, solace or strength in their beliefs in gods and too many who find the same without god beliefs. I think therefore it must be something else, as correlation does not always mean causation. As an aside, I was envious for years because I didn’t know how to find my own comfort and solace without relying on outside sources. I’m learning though, that it can only come from within. I’m sorry if I’ve repeated something already said. I sometimes only respond to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![prettydorky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f04885/32.png) [@prettydorky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prettydorky)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/152 "2010-05-13T16:51:12Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > This morning you saw light; you might have looked into the sky to see the sun. But in principle a great many causes could have led to that effect. That the sun “rose” (in the sense normally understood) is just one hypothesis. The point is that agnostics tend to apply their epistemological criterion to one subject (whether or not gods exist) and not to others (e.g., whether the sun rising this morning explains its presence in the sky). _This_ I can grasp. And **Begbert**. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/153 "2010-05-13T16:58:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, I have read the Bible, all the way through, more than once, but the Bible is not religion. Religion is decided upon by the members of that religion. Remember Jesus said “Love your enemies.” All religions teach positive love others, but the members don’t always care what is being taught. You’re the one that doesn’t seem to care what’s being taught. You’re ignoring the overwhelming majority of the Bible that teaches you to kill just about everything that moves in favor of a few lines about love. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/154 "2010-05-13T17:17:40Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. Why would an agnostic care about sheltering religion from critical thought? And doesn’t faith sort of require the absence of critical thought? > > Why would agnostics wish to defend religion? The answer to that would depend on the agnostic in question no doubt. But the fact is, by being an agnostic that’s what they are doing; they are taking a position towards religion that would be considered bizarre for most subjects with the same lack of evidence. People don’t take the agnostic position towards Sauron or Darth Vader being real; they are flatly called fictional characters. But there’s no reason to take the claims of gods being real any more seriously than a claim that Sauron or any other fictional character is real. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/155 "2010-05-13T18:03:10Z")
Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/156 "2010-05-13T18:08:02Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? Yes, me. But I’m not unwilling to change my mind given evidence. What definition of “know” are you using? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/157 "2010-05-13T18:09:00Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > There are plenty of atheists (and theists) who state their position as fact rather than belief. Are you sure about that? Absolutely certain? Don’t feel the need to stick a qualifier in that sentence? “I think that some number of people who might be atheists or might be theists or might be agnostics may be stating their position, or not, as a fact, opinion or belief, or it may be that something else is happening, possibly, we can’t be sure.” You seem mighty sure of yourself for someone who criticises others for the certainty of their beliefs. 🙂 Either way, there are no gods.\* Sandwich - anyone should feel free to redefine any of these words to mean something they feel more comfortable with, or to generate a meaning which is clearly untrue, if that would make them feel better. Just don’t expect me to care. And there still won’t be any gods. Added later: posted before reading the previous two posts! ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/158 "2010-05-13T18:10:58Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? It depends which definition of _know_ you’re talking about. If it’s one of absolute certainty, I don’t think you’ll find that there are many atheists that believe they can be absolutely certain of anything. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/159 "2010-05-13T18:13:44Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? I know that there isn’t a God in the same way that I know there isn’t a Tooth Fairy and in the same way that you know the Sun is a ball of flaming gas and that you know that there isn’t a pit bull on your bed. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/160 "2010-05-13T18:15:54Z")
1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? Yes. 1. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=9)