# Two questions for atheists / agnostics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781 "2010-05-09T03:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/161 "2010-05-13T18:22:31Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity: > > 1. Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith? > > 2. If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith? 1)Yes 1. I often thought I would be happier if I were a believer. However, I don’t feel “envy”. It’s a bit like asking me if I would want to take a drug that would make me happy, regardless how crappy my life really is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/162 "2010-05-13T18:29:13Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? To the same extent that I “know” there’s a sun in the sky, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/163 "2010-05-13T18:31:11Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? I know that there is no God the way I know that there is no Sauron; both are fictional, physics violating creatures that simply don’t fit in reality. “Deity” existing is about as likely as me actually being a Nazgul who is hallucinating being a guy typing on a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/164 "2010-05-13T18:46:34Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that there is no deity? Does anyone in this thread _know_ that they aren’t actually just dreaming their lives while being confined inside an alien energy-sucking machine? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/165 "2010-05-13T19:44:57Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Does anyone in this thread _know_ that they aren’t actually just dreaming their lives while being confined inside an alien energy-sucking machine? Not me. Just as I don’t know there is no god. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/166 "2010-05-13T19:47:23Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Not me. Just as I don’t know there is no god. Exactly the point. So are you a Matrix agnostic? ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/167 "2010-05-13T19:48:06Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Not me. Just as I don’t know there is no god. Is it your contention that the word “know” should be purged from the dictionary and never used about anything? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/168 "2010-05-13T19:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Exactly the point. Thank you. At last, we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/169 "2010-05-13T19:55:30Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Thank you. At last, we agree. No, we don’t. As Gustav pointed out, your position requires that the word “know” is effectively meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/170 "2010-05-13T20:20:29Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Thank you. At last, we agree. I can’t help feeling you’ve set out to teach us a lesson, despite your claim otherwise. I know there are no gods because if there were gods, I’d be one. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/171 "2010-05-13T20:28:51Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > You’re the one that doesn’t seem to care what’s being taught. You’re ignoring the overwhelming majority of the Bible that teaches you to kill just about everything that moves in favor of a few lines about love. Just history, that is all it is, history. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/172 "2010-05-13T20:34:46Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I can’t help feeling you’ve set out to teach us a lesson, despite your claim otherwise. > > I know there are no gods because if there were gods, I’d be one. No, I know better than that. All I’ve done is state my beliefs, no different than anyone else here. I think the main difference between many of us is that I admit I may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/173 "2010-05-13T20:37:47Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I think the main difference between many of us is that I admit I may be wrong. You’re mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/174 "2010-05-13T20:38:59Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I think the main difference between many of us is that I admit I may be wrong. :rolleyes: Really. Do you “admit” then that you really might be a brainwashed sentient cyborg rabbit in a virtual reality simulation tank who only thinks he’s a human posting on the internet? Something that is a lot more plausible than God, by the way; it doesn’t violate a single physical law. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/175 "2010-05-13T21:26:19Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > No, I know better than that. All I’ve done is state my beliefs, no different than anyone else here. > > I think the main difference between many of us is that I admit I may be wrong. Oh yeah? Who here are you _specifically_ accusing of being unwilling to admit they may be wrong? I want to see quotes from this thread. Here, let me help you get started: > [@begbert2](#): > > Yes, me. But I’m not unwilling to change my mind given evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/176 "2010-05-14T00:32:09Z")
Yes, begbert, you admitted you may be wrong. Yours is the only example I’ve found, though, with my admittedly-brief scan through the thread. That certainly does nothing to diminish my statement\* that you are challenging, though. \*(_I think the main difference between **many** of us is that I admit I may be wrong_) ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/177 "2010-05-14T00:46:51Z")
Look, maybe it’s time we put this thread to bed. I know I’ve antagonized many of you, and I want to apologize if I came off as confrontational at times. I know how strongly you feel about your position on the topic, and I do not doubt that it is genuine and rock solid. I started this thread because recently this thought entered my mind: “Damn, I wish I had Total Faith like him and him and her and her.” Envy? Yeah, I think it was (is). I don’t think such thoughts are abnormal; I consider it a moment of introspection. And then I wondered if atheists ever entertain such thoughts, and I wondered whether they would own up to it. I’ve gained some insight here. I’ve re-thought some things, and I’ve grown to embrace some new perspectives. So, thanks for that. In case anyone is still confused about my stance, here it is: I just don’t fucking know. And, deep down, I believe I am not supposed to. MMM ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/178 "2010-05-14T00:57:27Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > \*(_I think the main difference between **many** of us is that I admit I may be wrong_) A hollow attempt to claim intellectual superiority and false humility; if someone said “but of course I might be wrong and maybe _Star Wars_ is a documentary” they’d be regarded as an idiot or making a joke. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > In case anyone is still confused about my stance, here it is: I just don’t fucking know. > > And, deep down, I believe I am not supposed to. Which pretty much amounts to an admission that you aren’t actually agnostic, since that implies that there’s something there to declare that you aren’t supposed to know. And again; do you say the same about the reality of Sauron or Darth Vader? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/179 "2010-05-14T01:28:29Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Yes, begbert, you admitted you may be wrong. Yours is the only example I’ve found, though, with my admittedly-brief scan through the thread. No one brought up that they may be wrong because it has nothing to do with the OP. You say, "I think the main difference between many of us is that I admit I may be wrong. " When asked for some quotes from this thread that would give you a reason to think that, you don’t come up with any. > [@](#): > > That certainly does nothing to diminish my statement\* that you are challenging, though. > > \*(_I think the main difference between **many** of us is that I admit I may be wrong_) That you’ve been asked for a cite and instead just repeat your claim does diminish your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781/180 "2010-05-14T04:59:25Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Perhaps you should ask yourself that question. > > Just as you can’t be \*certain \*that there’s not a leprechaun stealing your socks out of the dryer. The fact that you’ve never seen him do it is not proof of his nonexistence … right? Well, that presumes I have a problem with socks getting lost in the laundry. The dog eats them and I have proof. > [@](#): > > The fact is that agnosticism is merely a form of special pleading for religion. It holds theological claims to a different standard of truth than other claims. But why should an exception be made for religion? Why should the question of the existence of God be treated any differently than the question of the existence of ANY hypothetical entity? Because of the ubiquity and the sheer persistence of deism. Call it God, Thor, Adroa, Og, Ra, Quetzalcoatl, Allah, Vishnu, Tangaloa ad infinitum. Throughout human history, across diverse cultures, deism has been a human constant. Call it mass delusion of biblical proportion, if you like, but we seemed to be predisposed to have faith in some type of deity or deities. Why? Coping mechanism? Why? We have an innate need to understand mysteries? Why? Because we’re capable of thought. It just seems intriguing to me that it has such a firm hold on the human imagination. That’s why I can’t rule out the possibility that there is a deeper meaning to faith. That said, it still doesn’t compel me to adopt attempt to adopt faith in theology. I guess I’m just not programmed to. Why don’t I treat the existence Darth Vader as a possibility equivalent to that of deities? It’s a movie character, not a movement. Why not leprechauns? I’m not Irish. Santa Claus? Actually, I do believe in Santa Claus as a concept of giving and joy, not as an entity. I’ve met a Santa Claus (not the mall variety; but a genuinely generous and kind fellow.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-atheists-agnostics/538781.md?page=10)