# Two questions for creationists... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2001, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944 "2001-08-12T21:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/61 "2001-08-16T17:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by ultrafilter \* > > \*\*Psst…big bang cosmology isn’t part of evolutionary theory! And see my post above for an explanation of why I don’t buy the argument about “the odds”. \*\* > > I know that, but it is because of the Big Bang (so the story goes) that the universe was created and… as the story goes… allowed life to evolve on it. > > The point I was trying to make is that there are some pretty big holes in your “theory”. \*\* May I direct you to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81157)? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/62 "2001-08-16T17:09:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\*The point I was trying to make is that there are some pretty big holes in your “theory”. \*\* And I’m asking you to point out the biggest one. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/63 "2001-08-16T17:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > 2: I said this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Just to further qualify Q2; we’re talking about evolution of species, **not the big bang** , not biogenesis > > \*\* While we’re at it, why don’t we focus solely on things that advance the evolutionary arguement, and ignore everything that takes away from it? Good idea? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/64 "2001-08-16T17:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > \*\*The point I was trying to make is that there are some pretty big holes in your “theory”. \*\* > > And I’m asking you to point out the biggest one. \*\* Entirely subjective. Give me some grounds for an answer, what type of repsonse are you looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/65 "2001-08-16T17:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultrafilter \* > \*\* > > May I direct you to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81157)? \*\* What about it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/66 "2001-08-16T17:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > > \*\*The point I was trying to make is that there are some pretty big holes in your “theory”. \*\* > > > > And I’m asking you to point out the biggest one. \*\* > > Entirely subjective. Give me some grounds for an answer, what type of repsonse are you looking for? \*\* Please read the OP again ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/67 "2001-08-16T17:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > > \*\* > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > > > \*\*The point I was trying to make is that there are some pretty big holes in your “theory”. \*\* > > > > > > And I’m asking you to point out the biggest one. \*\* > > > > Entirely subjective. Give me some grounds for an answer, what type of repsonse are you looking for? \*\* > > Please read the OP again \*\* I’ve already answered the OP, Mangetout. Perhaps you should head back up the thread and read MY response again. (Why do evolutionsts love running in circles?) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/68 "2001-08-16T17:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > \*\* > > 2: I said this: > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Just to further qualify Q2; we’re talking about evolution of species, **not the big bang** , not biogenesis > > > > \*\* > > While we’re at it, why don’t we focus solely on things that advance the evolutionary arguement, and ignore everything that takes away from it? Good idea? :rolleyes: \*\* Look, if you want to discuss something **outside this topic** , then start your own thread, it’s not difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/69 "2001-08-16T17:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\*I’ve already answered the OP, Mangetout. Perhaps you should head back up the thread and read MY response again. > > (Why do evolutionsts love running in circles?) \*\* I don’t see anything of substance up there, OK, you propose the Bible as evidence of the existence of God, yes, I think you may be right, but you think the Bible is entirely literal truth? well, I used to think that (actually the word ‘think’ isn’t appropriate in that sentence), I’m afraid you’ll have hard time convincing many people here that the Bible is literally true in every single verse. Now as regards holes in the theory of bilogical evolution, you haven’t given me anything, you try to involve the physics of the big bang, which has nothing to do with biological evolution (except that that’s where matter came from, no, I’m asking about what has happened to that matter, here on earth, in geological history. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/70 "2001-08-16T17:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > > \*\* > > > 2: I said this: > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > Just to further qualify Q2; we’re talking about evolution of species, **not the big bang** , not biogenesis > > > > > > \*\* > > > > While we’re at it, why don’t we focus solely on things that advance the evolutionary arguement, and ignore everything that takes away from it? Good idea? :rolleyes: \*\* > > Look, if you want to discuss something **outside this topic** , then start your own thread, it’s not difficult. \*\* Haha, such a defeatist tone! Look, if evolution is the reason we are here, then the materials that created the universe and supposedly created LIFE ON EARTH had to come from somewhere. But heck, let’s ignore the fact that evolution can’t take place unless the materials to allow it COME FROM SOMEWHERE. Because apparently that aspect is whole-heartedly irrelevant? Let me put in scientific terms, perhaps then you’ll understand? A = Materials to create universe and everything in it. B = How materials came to be. C = Life appears, and, evolves. You can’t have C without A. You can’t have A without B. **You want me to present arguements against C**. My arguement against C, is B. I do not know how I can make this any clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/71 "2001-08-16T17:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*I’m afraid you’ll have hard time convincing many people here that the Bible is literally true in every single verse. > \*\* Well it’s a good thing I’m not claiming that to be the case, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/72 "2001-08-16T17:33:56Z")
Let’s assume, just for the sake of argument, that God created the universe, now **apart from saying “Aha, see, then the Bible must be literally true”** , can you now pick some holes in evolutionary theory for me. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/73 "2001-08-16T17:34:23Z")
…I just want to say that I do believe in microevolution. Just not macroevolution. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/74 "2001-08-16T17:38:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Let’s assume, just for the sake of argument, that God created the universe, now **apart from saying “Aha, see, then the Bible must be literally true”** , can you now pick some holes in evolutionary theory for me. \*\* I never said the bible must be literally true, get this quirky idea out of your head. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/75 "2001-08-16T17:38:57Z")
In today’s performance, the part of “The Creationist” will be played by Hamish. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/76 "2001-08-16T17:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\*…I just want to say that I do believe in microevolution. Just not macroevolution. \*\* Right, now we’re getting somewhere. Can you tell me what mechanism causes microevolution and what mechanism stops a whole load of micro changes spilling over into making up a macro change? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/77 "2001-08-16T17:45:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > \*\*I’m afraid you’ll have hard time convincing many people here that the Bible is literally true in every single verse. > > \*\* > > Well it’s a good thing I’m not claiming that to be the case, isn’t it? \*\* Perhaps it would help if you were to explain exactly what you are claiming then (with respect to the Bible and creation). ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/78 "2001-08-16T17:47:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > \*\*…I just want to say that I do believe in microevolution. Just not macroevolution. \*\* > > Right, now we’re getting somewhere. > > Can you tell me what mechanism causes microevolution and what mechanism stops a whole load of micro changes spilling over into making up a macro change? \*\* “Can you tell me what mechanism causes microevolution” Random genetic mutations. “what mechanism stops a whole load of micro changes spilling over into making up a macro change” Micro changes are micro changes. Macro changes are macro changes. Micro changes are not macro changes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/79 "2001-08-16T17:51:38Z")
**Royal Sampler** , I am not an evolutionist. I know of no such term. I accept evolution because God is not a weasel. Your mind is closed. Your heart is cold. You seek to “win” and to defeat and to dominate. You show no love, no kindness. You spurn the gifts the Lord has given you. You seek to limit God and place Him in a box of your own construction. You do the Lord no favors. I pray that you might someday find love in your heart, and understanding that God is God, and He is infinite. May you find peace, and surcession of your anger. YBIC, -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Sampler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@Royal\_Sampler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Sampler)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944/80 "2001-08-16T17:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Royal Sampler \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > > \*\*I’m afraid you’ll have hard time convincing many people here that the Bible is literally true in every single verse. > > > \*\* > > > > Well it’s a good thing I’m not claiming that to be the case, isn’t it? \*\* > > Perhaps it would help if you were to explain exactly what you are claiming then (with respect to the Bible and creation). \*\* I never claimed anything, Mangetout. All I did was read the OP, which asked 2 specific questions, I then proceeded to give 2 answers to those questions. I believe the Bible is a good account, but I personally do not believe it is entirely literal, because what is or what is not literal is subjective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-questions-for-creationists/75944.md?page=5)