# Two Star Wars questions
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [May 6, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535 "2002-05-06T13:49:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/21 "2002-05-07T22:11:55Z")
Tarkin is not in Episode II (which I just saw). However, one should assume that both Vader and tarkin were with Palpy from “day one” of the New Order, and thus both were so far superior to all others in the Empire that the only ones who could boss the other around were… well each other.
Also, don’t be too quick to take the books as set-in-stone canon. At least one “surprise” in Episode II radically invalidates several parts of some of Anderson’s books.
Personally, until Episode III is released, I don’t consider anything in the books fully canon. Once Ep3 is out, we can tell what makes the cut, and what doesn’t. Episode II throws a lot of doubt on several major plots in several of the books already. I’m sure Episode III will do the same.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Green\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Green_Fool)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/22 "2002-05-07T22:49:37Z")
I think everyone (Star Wars fans) understands books are NOT canon. The only things that are canon are the movies… It used to be Movies, Novelizations of the movies and Shadows of the Empire. Now, it is just the movies.
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### Author:  [@Shortie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shortie)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/23 "2002-05-07T23:28:23Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mr. Green Fool \*
> \*\*I think everyone (Star Wars fans) understands books are NOT canon. The only things that are canon are the movies… It used to be Movies, Novelizations of the movies and Shadows of the Empire. Now, it is just the movies. \*\*
Nah, it hasn’t changed. Movies are still the **most** canon, followed by the novelisations\radioplays, the books, and then the games. In general the EU is called official rather than canon, but anything in them can be assumed to be true until and unless it is contradicted by something higher up the chain.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/24 "2002-05-08T00:32:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shortie \*
> \*\*
> Not me, nor Darksabre. Too little common-sense, too many silly plot devices\ideas. There are some other bad ones as well, around that point in the timeline.
> Stackpole and Allston did the X-wing novels, which were alright, but didn’t really seem much like Star Wars to me, more like Wing Commander. \*\*
I HATED KJA’s books. On the old Ballantine SW message board, he was commonly referred to as “Burger Boy.” And Barbra “Children of the Jedi” Hambly, aka “Rambly” was another one. Callista sucks.
Zahn kicks serious ass. Stackpole is pretty good-I once e-mailed him and he answered back-pretty nice guy.
I would LOVE to see if there is a Mara Jade’s whole backstory in the works-like her family and such. I HATED how they cheated us of knowing about Han in Crispin’s trilogy-even though that was pretty good.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Green\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Green_Fool)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/25 "2002-05-08T00:46:08Z")
Shortie…what are you talking about?
The movies aren’t “most canon” They are canon. There isn’t “most canon”, “sort of canon” and “tiny bit canon”.
There’s canon and non-canon.
The novelizations were considered canon until Lucas himself decided they weren’t. (See he wanted to make Uncle Owen Luke’s real (step)uncle not Obi-Wan’s brother as is stated in the novel)
And yes things are considered official in the EU until Lucas contradicts them. But he CAN and WILL contradict them if he sees fit and since they are not canon it isn’t an issue of poor storytelling or mistakes. They are simply the ways things always were and the contradiction is the EU not Lucas.
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### Author:  [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/26 "2002-05-08T01:24:20Z")
Lucas steps all over EU in Episode II. I don’t think it safe to take any of that as canon at this point.
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/27 "2002-05-08T09:26:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I’m with you all the way with Zahn, but Kevin J Anderson is hated? I had no idea. No one liked the Jedi Academy Trilogy?
Well, I liked the KJA trilogy, at least. I found them whimsical and fun, and they had a few interesting ideas. However, I do see why some people hate them… they are SO-O-O-O-O hokey.
> [@](#):
>
> The movies aren’t “most canon” They are canon. There isn’t “most canon”, “sort of canon” and “tiny bit canon”.
Semantics. It doesn’t matter what they’re called… the end result is that the EU carries as much weight as the movies as long as they don’t contradict. In the case of a contradiction, the movies take precendence.
> [@](#):
>
> And yes things are considered official in the EU until Lucas contradicts them. But he CAN and WILL contradict them if he sees fit and since they are not canon it isn’t an issue of poor storytelling or mistakes. They are simply the ways things always were and the contradiction is the EU not Lucas.
That’s just fine. However, if Lucas chooses to contradict the EU, it simply invalidates that little aspect of the EU, not all of it. For instance, we now know that Boba Fett was _not_ some Journeyman Protector (or whatever) named Jaster Mereel. However, that just invalidates that aspect of that particular story… other aspects - such as Fett’s confrontation with Han Solo 15 years after ROTJ - are still part of the Star Wars universe.
> [@](#):
>
> Lucas steps all over EU in Episode II. I don’t think it safe to take any of that as canon at this point.
I find it hard for him to do that, considering that a lot of the EU deliberately avoided trying to deal with pre-Star Wars aspects of the series. Unless there’s a line where Palpatine declares “I have seen the future, and there will NOT be a Grand Admiral named Thrawn who nearly succeeds in toppling the New Republic five years after I die (for the first time).”
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/28 "2002-05-08T09:29:50Z")
Of course, I mean pre-ANH aspects, not pre-Star Wars.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/29 "2002-05-08T10:03:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \*
> \*\*Tarkin actually held a civilian rank. However, he effectively had status equal to that of the highest-ranking fleet admirals. He attained that status by having an extremely influential policies and being the Emporer’s Right-Hand-Man, sort taking up the slack where Vader wasn’t really very skilled, like for example, applied technology and social endouvers. The Death Star project was his baby, start to finish.
>
> Vader’s status is even less well defined. Either man could have easily summoned whole fleets to serve them at will, subject only to the discretion of the Emporer. Vader as dear to the Emporer’s blackened heart as anything, though. He was sort of like Himmler in Nazi Germany. Himmler wasn’t officially a military officer. However, Himmler, like Vader, wielded enormous influence over the government and carried out the “special projects”. \*\*
Amazing! You took the words right out of my mouth. I’ve always thought of Vader as a Himmler type: lover by the leader, feared and despised by the regular army.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/30 "2002-05-08T10:04:15Z")
er, that’s “loved”, not “lover” 😛
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/31 "2002-05-08T10:16:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \*
> \*\*Why would vader be “on a leash” if he was in a higher position than Tarken? No no no!
>
> Tarken even stops Vader from choking that one guy (with his pinchy motion of death) by shouting him down. Looks to me like Vader knows his place and that is below Tarken. He never once countermands the man nor does Tarken seem the least bit intimidated by Vader.
>
> If you consider the Movies to be cannon (and I do) then it is clear Vader is below Tarken period.
> Nuff said. \*\*
Respectfully disagree there. It’s like, again, say, Goering and Himmler. Was one above the other? Technically maybe yes. Did one take any crap off the other? No. Did one take orders off of another? Definite no.
Once you get into the “inner circle” around the emperor/ der furher it’s all a big subtle power game. Everybody has his little job to do and they do it. If you want to undermine authority, direct confrontation isn’t the way to go, sucking up and backstabbing is (hence Bormann).
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### Author:  [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/32 "2002-05-08T10:52:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Bubba Ray \*
> \*\*1) Lightsabers, they are used to deflect shots by the Jedi, but is there a limit to the ammount of power they can deflect? Could a Jedi possibly deflect a shot from a larger ‘caliber’ like an AT:ST or one of the 'Tanks" the Droid army in EP1 uses?
>
> 1. in Episode IV, Grand Moff Tarkin, was he superior to Vader, or were they equal (Vader surely didn’t seem superior)? \*\*
1. In the PC games, sabres can be used to deflect cannon fire, but you still take a small amount of damage - from ‘splash’ or something…
2. I always thought that Tarkin was in command - Vader kind of exists outside of the command chain, as the Emperor’s personal Aide, but Tarkin is the military commander, so outranks vader in military matters
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### Author:  [@Shortie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shortie)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/33 "2002-05-08T12:28:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mr. Green Fool \*
> \*\*Shortie…what are you talking about?
>
> The movies aren’t “most canon” They are canon. There isn’t “most canon”, “sort of canon” and “tiny bit canon”.
>
> There’s canon and non-canon.
>
> The novelizations were considered canon until Lucas himself decided they weren’t. (See he wanted to make Uncle Owen Luke’s real (step)uncle not Obi-Wan’s brother as is stated in the novel)
>
> And yes things are considered official in the EU until Lucas contradicts them. But he CAN and WILL contradict them if he sees fit and since they are not canon it isn’t an issue of poor storytelling or mistakes. They are simply the ways things always were and the contradiction is the EU not Lucas. \*\*
Like SPOOFE said, that’s just semantics. Official stuff is still ‘real’ until proven otherwise, and there is a descending order of canonicity. And it’s never a mistake, it’s “just a more accurate picture” (or something, I forget).
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-star-wars-questions/107535/34 "2002-05-08T16:20:45Z")
I’m going to point out somethings here:
1. GM Tarkin held a civilian rank.
2. It is indeed hard to tell where the military and civilian authority merged or seperated.
In a very slight dissagreement with pravnik, I do think that some elements in the military respected Vader, a lot. Vader was undeniably effective, and that counts for a lot. But a few officers saw that he didn’t have a paycheck or a title and thought (to their rapid deaths) that they could simply ignore him or insult him.
But overall the Imperial Navy/Army probably didn’t entirely trust him. Vader just wasn’t an officer, though he was surely bright enough to know how to effectively run a military operation with competant help.
In any event, both Tarkin and Vader were the Emporer’s favorite’s.
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