# Two Towers whine ... spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 24, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757 "2002-12-24T19:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CastleAnthrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@CastleAnthrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CastleAnthrax)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/121 "2003-01-03T16:32:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer J \* > \*\*the changes to the story bothered me less than legolas not killing that orc which Aragon asked him to kill! \*\* Me, too! I mean, he can shoot a chain at the exact right place so it splits, but he can’t off one really big guy running in the clear holding a torch for Og’s sake? Legolas’s skills are extremely variable, as they were in the first movie. I have hobbyist friends- not Grand Master Bowman type guys but I shoot every couple of weeks guys- who shoot faster than what he’s portrayed as doing, and more accurately. He’s had how many decades to practice? He should be way better. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/122 "2003-01-03T16:34:23Z")
Hey, it’s Tolkien’s Eleventy First birthday today! ---
**Author:** ![CastleAnthrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@CastleAnthrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CastleAnthrax)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/123 "2003-01-03T16:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > \*\*Did you miss the part where they had one of five wizards in the world leading the charge and rather obviously using magic to make the light disrupt the orcs before the cavalry charge hit? AFAIK, no medieval armies had actual wizards leading their charges. What annoys me is people who ‘nitpick’ by ignoring important chunks of what went on. > \*\* I would agree with this, EXCEPT that there’s a shot of the bad guys recovering and another shot of the good guys riding their horses _through_ a line of readied pikes. If Gandalf made the riders invulnerable, the pikes should have bounced off. If the orcs were blinded and disoriented so they unset their pikes, they should have mostly bounced off but some should have hit still. We should have seen some serious horse-kabob. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/124 "2003-01-03T16:46:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer J \* > \*\*the changes to the story bothered me less than legolas not killing that orc which Aragon asked him to kill! \*\* He hit the thing twice, its obvious that Legolas needs a higher caliber arrow for stopping power. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/125 "2003-01-03T16:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HennaDancer \* > \*\*I would agree with this, EXCEPT that there’s a shot of the bad guys recovering and another shot of the good guys riding their horses _through_ a line of readied pikes. \*\* Again, a pike that is level is not a pike that is braced or readied. The pikes may have been pointing at the horses, but unless the orcs revcovered enough to brace them they aren’t going to do much good. ---
**Author:** ![CastleAnthrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@CastleAnthrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CastleAnthrax)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/126 "2003-01-03T16:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\*Again, a pike that is level is not a pike that is braced or readied. The pikes may have been pointing at the horses, but unless the orcs revcovered enough to brace them they aren’t going to do much good. \*\* It still would HIT the horse, then either just scratch it or bounce. These did not touch the horses at all. And I suspect that if you hit the horse with the pike, you may not get the benefits of bracing, but you’ll still make it have a Bad Day. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/127 "2003-01-03T17:07:16Z")
The sharpening wheel turns backwards cause it was filmed in New Zealand. Duh!:smack: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/128 "2003-01-03T17:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Middlea \* > \*\*The only way PJ could REALLY screw up ROTK is if he hires a bunch of midgets in chubby, furry suits to film climatic forest battle-scene pickups this summer. Oh, too, and if Arwen and Aragorn find out they’re related. Oy!😉 \*\* I agree with you on the first, but Aragorn and Arwen _are_ related – First cousins, 100 times removed. Not as close as sibs but, um . . . Oh yeah, in the book, Aragorn is pushing eighty (Those Numenorians got _good_ longevity genes!) and lasts another 120 years after Awen and he wed. This is glossed over or ignored completely in the movie for reasons that are self-evident. DD ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/129 "2003-01-03T18:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HennaDancer \* > \*\* He’s had how many decades to practice? He should be way better. \*\* A millenium perhaps… 😉 And in the book, of course, Frodo is also 60-80 years old. A middle-age hobbit. 🙂 And the orc with the torch reminded me of the Olympic torch. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/130 "2003-01-03T19:13:56Z")
Yes, book Frodo is the eldest of the four hobbits, but movie Frodo looks like he’s still in junior high. Book Pippin is supposed to be the youngest, but film Pippin (Billy Boyd) is 32 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Middlea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@Middlea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Middlea)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/131 "2003-01-03T19:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertDog \* > \*\*I agree with you on the first, but Aragorn and Arwen _are_ related – First cousins, 100 times removed. Not as close as sibs but, um . . . > > DD \*\* Um…I knew about the lineage part. Both are descendents of Earendil and Elwing. Thought I was being funny (ya know, Luke, Leah(sp?), sis and bro) with winky smile, no? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/132 "2003-01-03T19:25:27Z")
Although at the time of Bilbo’s party, Frodo was a youngster of 33. Gandalf didn’t exactly rush him out the door in the book. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/133 "2003-01-03T19:40:41Z")
In the book, both Pippin and Merry are hobbit-teenagers (tweenagers). Sam is older, mid 30’s, and Frodo the oldest of all. But Frodo is also supposed to look as young as Merry and Pippin, since he had the ring since his grown up birthday (30). ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/134 "2003-01-03T20:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HennaDancer \* > \*\*I would agree with this, EXCEPT that there’s a shot of the bad guys recovering and another shot of the good guys riding their horses _through_ a line of readied pikes. I’ve seen the movie twice, and haven’t seen the shot of the orcs recovering. I’ve seen them stagger a bit, but I certainly didn’t see anything that could be called recovery. And the orks _definately_ don’t have readied pikes for the riders to go _through_ - the pikes are just fairly horizontal, not braced like a readied pike would be. I think the visuals in the movie were quite clear that the orks were disoriented when the charge hit, and not to be too harsh but anyone who knows anything about medieval warfare should know that a readied pike does not have both ends in the air, and that it’s quite possible to live through charging pikemen who do not have their pikes ready and who are disoriented and in poor order. > [@](#): > > If Gandalf made the riders invulnerable, the pikes should have bounced off. If the orcs were blinded and disoriented so they unset their pikes, they should have mostly bounced off but some should have hit still. The orks were blinded and disoriented and did unset their pikes (this was pretty clear in the movie), and the riders of Rohan generally went between the unset pikes. I don’t think there was enough imagery of the charge to say that no one got injured by a pike at all (ISTR a rider or two falling, but I may be misremembering). ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/135 "2003-01-03T22:55:16Z")
What I missed were more Legolas and Gimli moments. I could count on one hand the scenes where they actually talked to each other in _both_ movies. Especially Legolas toward Gimli. Is it because maybe Bloom isn’t quite the actor Rhys-Davies is and it would’ve looked bad? I was hoping they’d talk amongst themselves after Aragorn fell. I wanted more of the orc-killing contest. The scene were Aragorn and Gimli went (tossed) on the bridge could’ve easily been Legolas and Gimli, showing them working together. It always seemed like Aragorn & Gimli or Aragorn & Legolas, but rarely the other combination. ---
**Author:** ![Tolkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@Tolkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tolkie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/136 "2003-01-03T23:59:17Z")
Hi. I found this site whilst searching for a good discussion on the changes to TTT. Looks like I found it. And now, for my two cents: Agree with all who disliked the changes to Faramir and the detour to Gondor. WTF? I realise that some changes are necessary when transcribing a book of this size to a film, I want those changes to be faithful to the book and its characters. For instance, I can forgive the omission of the Huorns, the postponing of Shelob until TROTK, and the melding of Eomer and Erkenbrand into one character, because neither of these were major details, and they serve to make the story flow in film format. The changing of Faramir does not do this. The scenes take up as much time, and I cannot imagine how the detour to Gondor will do much to speed up the plot. I don’t really care about the “skateboarding” scene, as it’s a stylistic choice–not what I’d have done, but it’s of no consequence. The other thing that irked me was Aragorn’s near death experience. This took up extra time in the movie, it didn’t serve to condense the plot one iota. I also liked the above rewrite of the Ent thing, so that the Ents make the right decision in the Ent moot. I also think that more emphasis on the Ents not-so-hasty nature could have been made. I do have to say, though, that the bit where Arwen envisions the future when Aragorn is dead was fairly inspired–and not exactly of PJ’s creation. Read the appendices at the back of TROTK, and I’m pretty sure you’ll find a reference. ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/137 "2003-01-04T00:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > In the book, both Pippin and Merry are hobbit-teenagers (tweenagers). Sam is older, mid 30’s, and Frodo the oldest of all. But Frodo is also supposed to look as young as Merry and Pippin, since he had the ring since his grown up birthday (30). Almost, but not quite right. Merry and Sam are both in their mid-thirties, roughly equivalent to human mid-twenties. Pippin is 27 or 28, roughly equivalent to a human somewhere around 18. Frodo is fifty, IIRC, (human late thirties or fortyish), but hasn’t aged noticeably since he got the ring at age 33 (human 21). ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/138 "2003-01-04T00:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > **Did you miss the part where they had one of five wizards in the world leading the charge and rather obviously using magic to make the light disrupt the orcs before the cavalry charge hit? AFAIK, no medieval armies had actual wizards leading their charges. What annoys me is people who ‘nitpick’ by ignoring important chunks of what went on.** > > I think my fellow dopers have responded adequately to this. I maintain that a forest of pikes held by blind guys still cannot be run through by a herd of horses without significant injuries. Pending the release of the DVD, I’d say we’re at an impasse here. > > **I’m going to have to ask for a cite on that one, while I’m sure a simple pile of green wood won’t make a hot enough fire, I fail to see why burning wood until it turns to coals wouldn’t work. Then there’s also the fact that the wood is from somewhat magical trees (Treebeard talked to them, remember) right around a wizards tower with the wizard in question supervising things. Directly burning the still-green trees to make iron instead of going through intermediate steps certainly makes sense from a magical point of view.** > > I had to google for a cite, because this is something every blacksmith is taught (I’m strictly an amateur). Making and maintaining a proper fire is more than half the art of metalworking. It gets less attention on TV and in books, but when working metal in real life, you spend an enormous chunk of your time on just the fire itself. All of my info comes from experience and from very old books which I don’t feel like typing into this little box. > > Let me ask you this: Have you ever thrown a piece of green wood on a fire? If you had, you’d have noticed the LARGE quantity of smoke produced, making the general vicinity of the fire quite inhospitable. Picture throwing an armload onto a larger fire in a confined space. Can you say smoke inhalation? That doesn’t even address the temperature aspects, it’s just one of the more obvious reasons. > > I offer the following link to the Appalachian Blacksmith’s Assoc. site. ([http://www.appaltree.net/aba/index.htm](http://www.appaltree.net/aba/index.htm)) It has several discussions/lessons where they demonstrate that wood is useful only after being turned into charcoal, a lengthy process. I have my DVD of FoTR right here, and it clearly shows orcs throwing green wood onto an actual forge fire. > > An excerpt: > _As to where and when blacksmithing evolved depended on fuel and iron ore. Charcoal was the primary fuel in many places. Where coal was found, it was converted to coke, a fuel that generated even more heat than charcoal. Iron ore, early man discovered, was present in rock strata that had a red color and the deeper the red hue, the higher the iron content. Then it became a quest to find the rock strata that gave up its iron with the least amount of work. Given the weight of the ore rock and the large amounts of fuel needed to smelt the ore, the earliest ironworks were located in areas where both ingredients were ample and in proximity to each other. The ironworks also had to be in an area where transporting the iron was practical. In early times, that often meant being near a navigable waterway. Early iron smelters consisted of an oven built from rocks that could withstand repeated heating. These ovens looked like beehives with a smoke vent in the top and an entry portal on the side. The hearth was filled with charcoal or coke, set afire, and the ore rocks were laid on top. When the temperature rose above 2000 degrees, the iron would flow from the ore and ‘puddle’ in the fiery coals_ > > I can’t comment on your “Magic Wood” theory. Tolkien wasn’t one for cop-outs like that, but maybe PJ is. The only magic wood I’ve seen is in my pants. > > \*\*I didn’t catch this, but are you sure it wasn’t just one of those reversed rotation ‘errors’ that movies have sometimes? You know, where something is rotating at a speed where the individual frames of film catch it at the right points so that it appears to be going backwards - you’ll see this a lot on old wagon wheels and such. \*\* As stated above, I was basing my nitpick on the direction the sparks flew, not the rotation of the wheel. Please read all my posts before rebuking me. **I apologize to the OP that my nitpicks have hogged so much of this thread. I truly didn’t forsee this much comment** ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/139 "2003-01-04T00:57:16Z")
welcome aboard tolkie. have you seen the “someone other than tolkien” author thread? how would you have made the difference between faramir/boramir apparent on the screen? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757/140 "2003-01-04T01:42:19Z")
Was that the same New Zealand forge where they filmed the forge scenes in _The Navigator_? (Another NZ movie, where the forge was central to the plot.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-towers-whine-spoilers/144757.md?page=8)