# Two women under one roof is "misery" in Chinese. Or not. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087 "2007-11-19T21:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/1 "2007-11-19T21:35:27Z")
I’ve heard this factoid for a number of years, pre e-mail glurge too, but is there any truth to it? The “two women…” part is attributed to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, any language with pictograms. It’s also said to mean misery, war, despair ASF. A bit of googling and some playing around with babelfish leads me to believe that there’s no basis for this at all. Which makes sense (Occam’s razor and all), since it’s just a bit too clever. So the questions are: Is this just some UL or is it real? And - more probable - who came up with this? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/2 "2007-11-19T21:53:53Z")
I could have sworn that this had come up before, but a) there are a ton of missing threads from years back, and b) the search engine misses a lot. Here’s a thread that has a passing comment about it. Won’t answer the question, but it’s a free bump: > **[Chinese speakers: can you explain this?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=338809)** > > Ok, I was reading Jessica Williams’ 50 Facts That Should Change the World and one of the chapters sited Canada senator Lois Wilson as saying: Could someone show me what those words are? I’m trying to explain it to my lady friend (who’s Taiwanese),... ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/3 "2007-11-19T22:15:49Z")
According to [this source](http://www.friesian.com/yinyang.htm), although the combinations of multiple women results in some interesting and amusing meanings, there is no actual character consisting of two women under one roof. > [@](#): > > A “woman” under a “roof” means “quiet,” “peace,” “tranquility.” Two “women” means “handsome” or “pretty,” and also “cunning.” This negative (misogynistic) suggestion emerges fully with three “women,” which means “adultery,” “fornication,” “licentiousness,” “debauch,” “ravish.”… It is sometimes said that the Chinese character for “trouble” shows two women under one roof. Such a character is possible, and would look like [this](http://www.friesian.com/images/kanji-5.gif), but there actually is no such Chinese character, though I understand that the myth lives on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![llywelyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@llywelyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llywelyn)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/4 "2011-08-22T07:27:47Z")
I know this is an old thread, but since it pops up to the top of some google searches, just thought I’d explain. The character people are thinking of is the _very_ uncommon one **奻** (_nuán_). There’s no roof, but they are together and the meaning is “quarrel, quarreling, foolishness, foolish, etc…” It’s by no means the common Chinese word for trouble (烦, 问题, 等等…), but it’s not non-existent either. Some others 㚣 (_xiáo_\*) 一 very archaic for “pretty; cunning; lewd” 姦 (_jiān_) 一 “wicked, wickedness; debauch, debauchery” (i.e., more about the man’s misdeeds than the women’s; bizarrely simplified to 奸, [woman] + [dry &/or f\*ck]) 好 (_hǎo/hào_) 一 the most common word for “good” is [woman] + [child] 安 (_ān_ 一 the common name & a word meaning “peace, peaceful” is (1) [woman] under a [roof] 如 (_rú_) 一 [woman] + [mouth] = “if” 嬲 (_niǎo_) 一 a [woman] btwn 2 [men] is “flirt” 嫐 (_nǎo_) 一 a [man] btwn 2 [women] is “fool, tease, prank” 妧 (_wàn_) 一 [woman] + [money] is an (archaic) word for “good-looking” (\ ***Not** “_jiao_”.) ---
**Author:** ![llywelyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@llywelyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llywelyn)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/5 "2011-08-22T07:45:57Z")
Also note that there are at least some Chinese feminists who do feel that these characters and others (娱、耍、婪、嫉、妒、嫌、佞、妄、妖、奴、妓、娼、姘、婊、嫖、等等) are sexist and [are pushing to emend them](http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/stories/sexist-chinese-characters-discriminate-against-women.html). (So far just blogging lawyers & the like, nothing before the Ministry of Education who control standard character forms. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/6 "2011-08-22T08:54:36Z")
What’s wrong with 等? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/7 "2011-08-22T10:20:20Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > I’ve heard this factoid for a number of years, pre e-mail glurge too, but is there any truth to it? The “two women…” part is attributed to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, any language with pictograms. That’s a pretty odd claim to make about Korean, as it’s written almost entirely in an alphabet; there are just a handful of borrowings from Chinese (which are in any case deprecated, at least in the north). Even for Chinese itself, only a tiny minority of the characters are pictograms. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/8 "2011-08-22T11:03:28Z")
Then there is my favorite, the word for “Mother”: 妈. A woman and a horse. That is to say, it’s a woman who _works_ like a horse, and _ **never** _ a woman who _looks_ like a horse, if you know what’s good for you (one of my Chinese teachers told me that one:D ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/9 "2011-08-22T12:00:46Z")
The horse bit is the phonetic component. “Mother” and “horse” are nearly homophones. Many (most?) Chinese characters are like this – one component to hint at the meaning and another component to hint at the pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/10 "2011-08-22T12:02:42Z")
BTW, “home” is a pig under a roof, 家 . ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/11 "2011-08-22T12:15:45Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The horse bit is the phonetic component. “Mother” and “horse” are nearly homophones. Many (most?) Chinese characters are like this – one component to hint at the meaning and another component to hint at the pronunciation. Incidentally, the word in question is pronounced “Ma”, much as you could use to refer to one’s mother in English. You can also use “Mama” if you prefer compound words. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/12 "2011-08-22T12:34:33Z")
The sentence “Is mother scolding the horse?” would transliterate as: “Ma ma ma ma ma?” ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/13 "2011-08-22T12:42:24Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > I’ve heard this factoid for a number of years, pre e-mail glurge too, but is there any truth to it? The “two women…” part is attributed to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, any language with pictograms. It’s also said to mean misery, war, despair ASF. > > A bit of googling and some playing around with babelfish leads me to believe that there’s no basis for this at all. Which makes sense (Occam’s razor and all), since it’s just a bit too clever. > > So the questions are: Is this just some UL or is it real? > And - more probable - who came up with this? I don’t know about “being Chinese”, but I’ve always heard old timers say, “Any man that thinks he can keep _ **two** _ women happy and satisfied at the same time, is either a liar or a damn fool, and most likely both!” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/14 "2011-08-22T14:16:12Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The sentence “Is mother scolding the horse?” would transliterate as: > > “Ma ma ma ma ma?” And let’s not even get into the one about 14 being 40. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/15 "2011-08-22T16:50:29Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > And let’s not even get into the one about 14 being 40. 😃 Shi si shi si shi? But sometimes it can sound like “Si si si si si”. I’m looking at you, Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/16 "2011-08-22T18:35:08Z")
And the granddaddy of them all: [Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/17 "2011-08-22T21:33:32Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > Shi si shi si shi? But sometimes it can sound like “Si si si si si”. I’m looking at you, Taiwan. Could be worse. A man from Beijing might say it “srr-rr-r_indistinctmumbling_”😃 ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/18 "2011-08-23T02:30:05Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > And the granddaddy of them all: [Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den) While maybe not the exact same thing, you [can do this in English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo), too. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/19 "2011-08-23T07:36:40Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Then there is my favorite, the word for “Mother”: 妈. A woman and a horse. Odd. A lot of stand-alone characters (as in, not used in combination with another to form a different word) have the same meaning in Chinese and Japanese. However, the Japanese mother 母 represents breasts, which makes a lot more sense than a horse. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087/20 "2011-08-23T07:45:35Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The horse bit is the phonetic component. “Mother” and “horse” are nearly homophones. Many (most?) Chinese characters are like this – one component to hint at the meaning and another component to hint at the pronunciation. Yeah, Chinese is Semantic-Phonetic for most of its characters, so deriving half-assed jokes, while admittedly amusing (no sarcasm intended), usually has little basis in fact. Doesn’t stop some people (even Chinese people :p) from doing it tho. A notion I fully support. The fun one is the Japanese _baka_, or idiot (fool, etc): 馬鹿 Horse + Deer. Japanese scholars haven’t even pinned this one down, the best we have are a handful of likely apocryphal stories that boil down to “so stupid you can’t tell a deer and a horse apart.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/two-women-under-one-roof-is-misery-in-chinese-or-not/427087.md?page=2)