Quite. That’s why the current parties are called Democrat and Republican, because they recall different aspects of the US system. They’re both “American.” And up until this demonization race, nobody gave a shit.
That’s why there so much variation within the sets. Democrats includes progressive Democrats, moderate Democrats and the so-called “Blue Dog” Democrats, On the other side you have misinformed simpletons, corrupt hypocrites, reactionaries and Barry Goldwater.
What’s so Orwellian about this democracy/republic business is the suggestion that some cabal of liberal atheist secular humanists got orders from Stalin in 1949 to start pushing the idea that the U.S. Is a democracy instead of a republic. “Democracy” has been the beloved word of American nationalists for more than a century. It’s not something liberals made up. And this sudden hostility towards the word “democracy” along with the insinuation that liberals are trying push some alien idea on the unsuspecting public bears the hallmark of a Big Lie campaign. Invent a problem and stick your opponents with the blame.
And I’m rather surprised how well it seems to be working even on this board.
Educated people, even, know that “republic” means representative government or it can even just mean a government without a hereditary monarch.
A republic can be a democracy, if authority ultimately derives from those being governed, or it can be a brutal repressive dictatorship. Saying that the U.S. is a “republic not a democracy” is not only laughable but can be conceivably correct only if you believe that under our system we can legitimately implement, say, a military junta rule. Yesof course we’re also a constitutional republic, but one of the obvious values being protected by the constitution is democracy, in balance mainly with protecting individual liberty. What the “republic not a democracy” camp seems to be pushing is an idea that there are some kind of independent republican values, separable and in conflict with democratic values as well as individual liberty. It seemed to begin with the Bush-Gore election recount in which this shibboleth wad used to bludgeon the argument that it somehow seemed wrong for the who got fewer votes to win the election. “A republic not a democracy!” was the non sequitur answer, as if constitutional republicanism somehow held up minority rule as a fundamental value.
Constitutional republicanism is a structure and in our case we established this structure to uphold values such as democracy, individual liberty, and egalitarianism. At times when we decided that the structure was insufficiently protecting those values or other ones we changed it by amending the constitution. We didn’t hold up such changes for fear that we were damaging the concept of constitutional republicsnism.
It’s all very weird and scary to be able to see this newspeak stuff playing our on front of our eyes.
This is BBQ, so I assume I can be frank here:
A significant proportion of the participants on this thread, no matter how rational they may normally be, are being absolutely retarded on this issue.
I’m not specifically targeting that at the two users I’ve quoted, the first seems to sum up the basic theory that some people are holding to, while the second seems to suggest that it doesn’t matter that the textbooks are wrong, if the people correcting them are Republicans, which just happened to give me a giggle.
I am not an American, I am not a Republican, I am not a Democrat (but several relatives are).
The Republicans are right on this one, you are a republic.
It was kinda cute when during the Bush years you all kept talking about being a democracy (they were a high point for nationalistic rhetoric), but it was never true, and nothing you can say will make it true.
You are a constitutional republic, or a democratic constitutional republic if you don’t mind the redundancy.
It *may *be possible that a small number of Republicans on a school board are plotting to weaken the Democrats by changing this.
Or, and in my opinion, more likely, they are like me, and get pissed off at millions of people repeating something that is plainly wrong, and grabbed the opportunity to correct a mistake, rather than leaving another generation of students thinking that a democracy and a republic mean the same thing (NOTE: They don’t. At all. Nor are they interchangeable).
Very, very few Democracies have ever really existed, and they certainly didn’t exist for long. However, most modern republics tend to focus heavily on democratic ideals (referendums, authority derived from the vote of the people etc.)
No, that is direct democracy. Given the context of the thread, perhaps it would be best if you consulted a non-Texan high school civics textbook before attempting to “contribute” anything further to this thread.
That is a democracy.
That is what a democracy is.
If people elect other people to do that for them, then that is a republic.
Only under one of at least two valid definitions of “democracy.” Or do you adhere to the belief that a word does not mean what it gas been used for centuries to mean?
It’s not that we aren’t a constitutional republic. It’s that we are also a democracy, as constitutional republics are. I don’t know where you’re from but in the US and UK democracy primarily refers to the practice of representative democracy, direct democracies being in someone short supply.
There has been a distinct lack of cites in this discussion. Only one poster has posted a definition of democracy and no one has posted a definition of republic. (Granted, the meaning of republic seems to not be controversial.)
I looked up both definitions in several sources and there is great consistency. The definition from this online source is nearly word for word what all dictionaries state:
Most sources do not explicitly state the US is a democracy as stated in #2. However, the rest of the definition is consistent across all sources.
The definition of republic from the same source:
Now for the opinion: Both apply to the U.S. but emphasize different aspects of the U.S government. If someone is insisting on choosing one over the other they are doing so to make a point. The point may be perfectly reasonable and proper. When discussing the role of congress it would make sense to emphasize the representative aspect of the government and to refer to the U.S. as a republic.
I do not believe that this change in Texas is being done for this reason. The only purpose of the change is to boost the Republican party.
Jeez Louise. No, that’s wrong.
Canada is a representative democracy, but is NOT a republic.
The People’s Republic of China is, by many accepted definitions, a constitutional republic, but is not really a democracy.
“Constitutional republic” and “representative democracy” quite simply are not the same thing. The USA happens to be both, but a country can be either without being the other.
Rght wing in the sense that it’s fighting the populist movement? I thought the right wing was actively encouraging the “populists”, which was why the Teabaggers were getting more publicity than they deserved. (?)
Preserve the republic as a republic? Why? Is it in danger? Are its enemies poised to attack? is there some sinister conspiracy to topple it?
As for the foudign fathers, why did they dump Thomas Jefferson and include Thomas Acquinas, who was NOT a founding father? And Calvin, who was not a founding father? For that matter, what was so bad about The Enlightenment?
No, these people are not trying to protect or preserve anything, they really aren’t. Instead they are trying to inject their own incorrect version of history.
Fuckin’ furriners messin’ up the flow of the thread by top-posting…:mad:
Direct democracy is the only thing that can legitimately be called democracy?
Thank you for sharing, I guess.
I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords.
I don’t care if it’s called a democratic republic, a representative democracy, a representive republic, a republican democracy, or Super Bowl Sunday. It’s a diversion and it’s a bullshit attempt at derailment.
I decided to link the following video, which shows one of the backers of this Rewriting Of History, name McElroy. At least to me, he doesn’t look SMART enough or EDUCATED enough to be allowed to decide what someone else should be taught. He also comes across as being extremely biased, and yes, he does have his own religious right wing agenda. Even worse, he’s sloppy with the facts and doesn’t apparently bother to check the facts at all …
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/35966_Video-_The_Creationist_in_Charge_of_Education_in_Texas
Social studies sections covered in the video: The “importance” of Falwell’s “Moral Majority”, the National Rifle Association, the Contract With America”, will be taught with no “liberal counterbalance”. Jefferson Davis treated as an equal to Lincoln, and Joseph McCarthy’s witch hunts were justified (and vindicated). Tried (and failed) to remove mention of Thurgood Marshall. Purged the writer of a childern’s book (Bill Martin) because they confused him with another writer who was critical of capitalism. They pushed the “christian faith of America’s founding fathers”, ignoring the Enlightenment, and Jefferson’s writings on religious freedom and tolerance.
Forget the website itself, and just watch THE VIDEO that it links to.
And who started the Democratic Party?
From here
The name Democrat won out, of course, and the Republican part was not formed until the 1850s. So, I guess you are saying that those Texas cretins know better than Jefferson and Madison.
Excuse me, don’t you mean Aquinas and Madison?
You got me, but wasn’t Aquinas a Federalist?
He lost the primary Republican primary! (There’s no Democratic candidate–his district includes Texas A&M.) From the Texas Freedom Network:
Of course, they will try to do as much damage as they can until they leave office.
Over the weekend, I perused the TFN’s 2008 report on The State Board of Education: Dragging Texas Schools into the Culture Wars. It’s on this page–warning, .pdf! (Yes, I was bored.)
In previous messages I’d bitched about Texans’ ignorance of the State School Board election process. Guess what–I had a lot to learn. The Houston district slot isn’t up for grabs this year–that’s why there was nobody on my primary ballot. Oh, and he’s a Democrat.
The report shows how State Boards are chosen in other states. Some are appointed, appointed & elected or elected in non-partisan elections. Texas is one of ten states with partisan elections for State School Board.
I also learned how the Far Right took over the School Board. They didn’t just try to dump Democrats–they got rid of Republicans, too. Many of whom we’d consider “conservative”–back when Conservative didn’t mean Batshit Insane. There’s detailed evidence on which Right Wing sugar daddies funded the takeover. And an amusing section titled “They Really Said It.” (Amusing in a sick kind of way.)
The report also includes a map showing which other states might be affected by Texas textbook selection. We’ve also had nutcases not connected to the Board “rating” our textbooks for years. To the extent that some publishers remove “controversial” content before submitting their books. Or just avoid submitting them, because it’s too much trouble. One Geology text replaced “millions of years ago” with “in the distant past” to placate the New Earth Creationists! (But the report notes that modern technology has made it easier for publishers to offer variant texts.)
At least some Texans are trying to fight these eejits. At least they’re getting the word out…
It’s good to read that “Voters made it clear on Tuesday that they are tired of seeing the State Board of Education threaten the future of Texas schoolchildren with unnecessary and divisive “culture war” battles over curriculum and textbooks”, and that “three of five far-right social conservatives lost election contests on Tuesday. A fourth was forced into a runoff. One of the defeated candidates was Don McLeroy, whom the state Senate refused to confirm for a second term as board chair in May 2009.” Good riddance to them.
The “they really said that” part was ummmm weird. Is this the sort of people any sane person would want overseeing the education of anybody?
Good riddance to these ignorant assholes, and I hope the good people of Texas are successful in weeding them all out – and keeping them out in the future.