# Tyre Nichols death - discussion as the video comes out **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 27, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910 "2023-01-27T16:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/101 "2023-01-28T20:49:58Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > A lot of cops think they can get away with anything due to “qualified immunity.” Do you know what “qualified immunity” is? It just means that a government official (not just police), doing his job as proscribed, can not be sued individually. You have to sue the Department. Police officers are in no way protected from criminal violations. Now, do you know what are the qualifications for a lawsuit\> The filing fee, which is usually quite small. Every IRS agent would be sued on a regular basis, hell the GOP would have a fund just for that. Gangs would quickly figure out that all they need to do is sue any good cop constantly, keeping him from enforcing the law, and bankrupting him just for the legal fees. Meter maid would be chased by process servers, which they did their jobs. Any unpopular commission or city council decision would be met by a slew of lawsuits to the individual lawmakers. Don’t like that planning commissions decision? Sue them each, over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/102 "2023-01-28T21:12:00Z")
We have been recording a lot of meetings at work since they all have at least some people on Zoom/Teams. It’s amazing how often someone will flat out lie about what transpired at meeting, forgetting that there is a recording. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/103 "2023-01-28T21:15:46Z")
So, are you saying that qualified immunity is never abused by the police? That they never use it to paper over abuses that they commit? If so, that’s naive. If not, then whatever point you tried to make here was completely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/104 "2023-01-28T21:35:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, are you saying that qualified immunity is never abused by the police? That they never use it to paper over abuses that they commit? i think they use it after the fact when they get sued and need a defense. I doubt many know enough to rely on it when they’re in the field doing stupid (or worse) things. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/105 "2023-01-28T21:36:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you know what “qualified immunity” is? It just means that a government official (not just police), doing his job as proscribed, can not be sued individually. You have to sue the Department. **Police officers are in no way protected from criminal violations.** …just to be clear here: Crafter\_Man never argued that qualified immunity protected cops from criminal violations. Just that many cops _think_ that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/106 "2023-01-28T21:37:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It just means that a government official (not just police), doing his job as proscribed, can not be sued individually. You have to sue the Department. …which can’t be sued because of _sovereign_ immunity. “Can’t sue the ~~King~~ State in ~~his~~ its own courts without ~~his~~ its consent.” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/107 "2023-01-28T21:45:53Z")
And prosecution is problematic since the DA is going to side with the police in all but the most egregious of cases. These cops messed up. Not by beating Tyre Nichols, but for doing so in a way that couldn’t be covered up and papered over. They’ll probably face some level of criminal punishment, but that won’t change the police culture, it’ll just make them a bit more careful not to get caught. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/108 "2023-01-28T21:49:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > just to be clear here: Crafter\_Man never argued that qualified immunity protected cops from criminal violations. Just that many cops _think_ that it does. Cite? Cops are not that stupid. Now sure cops think that their _badge_ gives them some sort of immunity, but they don’t think about lawsuits. > [@Max\_S](#): > > which can’t be sued because of _sovereign_ immunity. “Can’t sue the ~~King~~ State in ~~his~~ its own courts without ~~his~~ its consent.” Cities and states are constantly being sued- and paying out, due to Police excesses and errors. > **[Police misconduct is costing Washington taxpayers millions](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/police-misconduct-is-costing-washington-taxpayers-millions-is-george-floyds-murder-one-of-the-reasons/)** > > Monetary settlements in police misconduct claims and lawsuits have increased precipitously in both number and size over the past five years, according to a review of data by The Seattle Times. # Police misconduct is costing WA taxpayers millions. The trend shows no sign of slowing down _Lawsuits filed over their violent deaths resulted in more than a dozen multimillion-dollar settlements in 2021 as cities and counties increasingly decide to forgo civil trials and offer grieving families a kind of financial accountability. While settling police misconduct cases before they reach a courtroom is hardly a new tactic for risk managers, the steadily rising numbers and amounts are._ _Last year saw Washington cities and counties settle 15 misconduct and wrongful death cases for a total of at least $34.3 million, a 146% increase over what was paid out in 2020 — and a 363.5% increase over the 2019 amount, according to data compiled by The Seattle Times through public disclosure, court dockets and news accounts._ That is just one state. So, yeah, you are totally wrong, they can be sued. Sure _sovereign immunity_ is a thing, but it doesnt work like you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/109 "2023-01-28T21:52:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cops are not that stupid …cite? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Now sure cops think that their _badge_ gives them some sort of immunity, **but they don’t think** about lawsuits. They don’t think about a lot of things, apparently. They don’t think about lawsuits, they don’t think about the wellbeing of the people they are beating up, they don’t think about the consequences of what happens when the person they are beating up inconveniently happens to die. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/110 "2023-01-28T21:52:32Z")
Isn’t it nice that the five police officers on the force that were bad just happened to be at the same place, at the same time, making it easy to get rid of all the corruption at once? Now that they have been exposed, everything is hunky dory! 🙄 🙄 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/111 "2023-01-28T22:01:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cities and states are constantly being sued- and paying out, due to Police excesses and errors. I suspect these kinds of lawsuits are filed in U.S. District Courts against _persons_, whose qualified immunity is abrogated by 42 U.S.C. § 1983. ETA: I guess one could go for wrongful death in state court rather than federal court, but that’s probably much less common. And also it would be against the individual. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/112 "2023-01-28T22:08:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Police misconduct is costing WA taxpayers millions. The trend shows no sign of slowing down Doesn’t this give you reason to pause here? It apparently isn’t having an effect on getting the police to stop terrorizing and brutalizing those they are being paid to protect. It’s all well and good to win a lawsuit, but most people would probably rather have their family member still alive. Most people would rather have _not_ been tortured and maimed than to receive a settlement for having been. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/113 "2023-01-28T22:23:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Doesn’t this give you reason to pause here? It apparently isn’t having an effect on getting the police to stop terrorizing and brutalizing those they are being paid to protect. Sure, and what does that have to do with Qualified Immunity? Getting rid of Qualified Immunity won’t do anything. I mean, how many meter maids, planning commissioner clerks or tax auditors go on violent rampages like this? What is your solution? As long as we hire humans for cops, things like this will happen. It doesnt only happen here. Now yes, there are possible ways to reduce the problem- training, better hiring etc, but what is _your_ solution? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/114 "2023-01-28T22:38:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, and what does that have to do with Qualified Immunity? Getting rid of Qualified Immunity won’t do anything. It is entirely a strawman of your creation that it should be entirely gotten rid of. Change it a bit, so that when a cop finds a new and inventive way of violating your constitutional rights, they are not protected by the fact that no cop has ever been sued for violating constitutional rights in that way. But the binary dilemma that you present is false, and one of your own making. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Now yes, there are possible ways to reduce the problem- training, better hiring etc, but what is _your_ solution? I mean, do you expect me to write out an entire multi thousand page thesis on the problems and solutions facing the 17,000+ different police departments, address each and everyone specifically, and give the solution for each one? That’s a pretty ridiculous demand on your part. But yes, as you said, better training and hiring would certainly help. But holding them accountable for their actions would as well. Taking complaints of police misconduct seriously, as well as protecting the complainants against retaliation by those police. Holding not only the bad actors responsible, but also any other cops who have knowledge of those bad actions and didn’t report them. Demilitarize the police, and replace a significant portion of them with people who are trained to help people, especially people who are having a bad day of some sort, rather than someone who is only able to demand compliance with the threat of violence. Cops are protected, individually, by qualified immunity. If a cop shoves a screwdriver into your anus, you can’t sue them. You _may_ be able to sue the department, if they feel like letting you. It’s doubtful that the DA will bother to bring charges unless they are afraid the city will burn down in riots. So, what is _your_ solution? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/115 "2023-01-28T22:38:52Z")
For starters, we could hire better humans for cops. It can be done. Nearly every other profession manages to do it. How often do you hear about teachers killing our students, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/116 "2023-01-28T22:39:40Z")
You just wait until they [start carrying guns](https://time.com/4344226/donald-trump-guns-teachers-classroom/). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/117 "2023-01-28T23:07:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Taking complaints of police misconduct seriously, as well as protecting the complainants against retaliation by those police. Yes, good ideas. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Cops are protected, individually, by qualified immunity. If a cop shoves a screwdriver into your anus, you can’t sue them. Is that part of their training and procedures? Again qualified immunity has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem of police violent misconduct. It just sounds like they can’t be held legally responsible by people who do not understand it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/118 "2023-01-28T23:16:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, good ideas. Yes, that’s why I said them. Too bad they will never be implemented. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Is that part of their training and procedures? Is beating a man to death part of their training and procedures? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Again qualified immunity has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem of police violent misconduct. It just sounds like they can’t be held legally responsible by people who do not understand it. No, that’s not it at all. Please stop strawmanning. Anyway, I answered your question, but you never answered mine, what is your solution to this trend that, as you cited, is _not_ slowing down? ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/119 "2023-01-28T23:39:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Cities and states are constantly being sued- and paying out, due to Police excesses and errors. > > I suspect these kinds of lawsuits are filed in U.S. District Courts against _persons_, whose qualified immunity is abrogated by 42 U.S.C. § 1983. > > ETA: I guess one could go for wrongful death in state court rather than federal court, but that’s probably much less common. And also it would be against the individual. > > ~Max Our dear Sheriff Joe has cost Maricopa county taxpayers well over $100 million in settlements and associated legal fees. That does not include something like $175 million related to his racial profiling program and willful ignoring court orders to cut it out. Still financial fallout years after he was finally voted out of office. I don’t know how the suits were targeted, but the county ends up paying. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910/120 "2023-01-28T23:45:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > “My staff, I asked them to pull all of the video that they can find in the area … and **we were unable to find that and we were unable to get that captured on body worn camera** as well from the initial officer,” she explained. This makes me wonder if the audio before the stop might have something on it that makes things even worse. Like “Hey, I don’t like that make of car. Let’s pull this guy over and beat the shit out of him.” “OK, I’m bored, sounds good to me.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tyre-nichols-death-discussion-as-the-video-comes-out/978910.md?page=7)