# U.K. General Election December 2019 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 29, 2019, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639 "2019-10-29T11:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/181 "2019-12-13T04:47:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s hard to take the moral high ground when identity politics is pretty much the basis of your party, and now it’s the basis of both parties. If you look at 2nd choice voting in the Democratic primary, ideology seems almost irrelevant. Old white voters will take Biden or Sanders, women will take Harris or Warren, college educated voters like Warren and Buttigieg. It’s all about who you see yourself in or who you think will fight hardest for your group. The biggest demographic factor within the democratic party is age. Older democrats prefer Biden and younger democrats prefer sanders. Even in the black community which is very pro Biden, it’s more older black voters who support him while younger ones are more open to Warren or sanders. I think that’s more about conservatism and cynicism with capitalism more than identity politics. But the gops message is that whites, men, Christians, native born Americans, conservatives, etc are more valid and authentic than everyone else. It’s a very appealing message and the democrats have no way to counter it. The rich and powerful use divide and conquer tactics to divide the population. I saw Bernie sanders at a rally and he discussed this fact, but democrats haven’t really pushed the narrative that identity politics just makes you a pawn of the rich and powerful. But even so who knows if that narrative would even work. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/182 "2019-12-13T05:16:02Z")
Well, the turkeys have certainly voted for Christmas. Now butcher Johnson is sharpening his knife to get them oven ready. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/183 "2019-12-13T06:11:41Z")
Abandoning identity politics and wokeness in favor of the old traditional “treat everyone the same” goal would definitely make me more likely to be a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/184 "2019-12-13T06:15:49Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I will also add something else, UK folk are somewhat dogged and determined, push them, try to frighten them and they will just dig in out of sheer defiance and push back against you hard. > > Labour should realise the British character is that we do not respond well to scare tactics, it didn’t work well during the Brexit campaign as the Conservatives found out to the cost of Theresa May - they assumed the project fear would scare people into voting remain. > > Labour had pretty much done the same thing on NHS and some other issues - its been project fear for months now - and we all know that there is a huge amount of hyperbole. > > If our politicians try to scare us into making a decision that suits them - we simply won’t do it, and we will bite back and we will keep on biting until it hurts you - no matter how it hurts us - we can deal with pain but in the end you will hurt more than us - so don’t push us. We DO NOT SCARE. Spare me the home-spun wisdom. The ‘Great’ British People are scared by/have mindless optimism for exactly what they’re told to by the right-wing tabloids and charismatic pseudo-rebel leaders. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/185 "2019-12-13T06:26:10Z")
So why did the right wing tabloids defeat the great BBC, which supposedly insures that there’s a fair debate in Britain? Not to mention all the left wing papers like the Guardian? Some of the langugage coming out of Britain’s left today seems to advocate shutting down media they disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/186 "2019-12-13T06:30:39Z")
The end of the United Kingdom seems likely. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/187 "2019-12-13T06:34:09Z")
“Whelp, that’s Brexit sorted, then!”, he said sarcastically. And the overwhelming SNP gains means the Union’s days are likely numbered, don’t they? No-one can say they don’t have a clear mandate for a second referendum. Of course, Boris won’t allow one, but that’s just going to build resentment, especially when the reality of Brexit kicks in. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/188 "2019-12-13T06:47:01Z")
Scots: Why did Labour do so badly in Scotland? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/189 "2019-12-13T06:47:41Z")
All right Scotland, time to get out! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/190 "2019-12-13T06:52:48Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But in the US at least, the rural areas used to be leftist up until the civil rights movement. I’m going to have to disagree. Rural areas were economically populist( and they still sorta are ), which during and post-New Deal meant poor rural whites generally aligned with liberal urban whites and minorities for a few decades in a coalition of sort. But that did not imply leftist ideology, or at least not the type of _social_ liberalism usually associated with leftist views. Many, many southern Democrats were fervent racists and segregationists. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/191 "2019-12-13T07:32:08Z")
Boris Johnson’s winning speech was pretty good. “Let’s get Brexit done, but first let’s get breakfast done.” ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/192 "2019-12-13T08:13:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > As someone who doesn’t understand UK politics, can someone explain to me why the conservatives won so heavily? The numbers of votes cast suggest only modest increases in the vote for the Tories and for the minor parties, over the whole country, but all of those seemingly coming from Labour. Add that to where those movements were, in a first-past-the-post system, and it translates into a substantial loss of Labour seats. Overall, the Tories saw off the Brexit Party and consolidated those votes. Labour lost votes in leave-leaning seats to the Tories; in Remain-leaning seats, Labour votes leached away in lesser quantities to the LibDems and Greens. Clearly, being seen to sit on the fence was the wrong strategy. > **[Election results 2019: Analysis in maps and charts](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50770798)** > > Analysis in of the 2019 general election in maps and charts. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/193 "2019-12-13T08:51:42Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Scots: Why did Labour do so badly in Scotland? Scottish Labour died years ago. Long story short: they took their decades-long dominance (on both the local and national levels) for granted, and treated the voters with lazy contempt. The SNP, being the sort of centre-left party that Scotland actually likes, hoovered up the votes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/194 "2019-12-13T09:29:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Ok, so did the conservatives win because the leftist vote was split between labour and liberal democrats Some key points that I’ve heard over and over and over and over, from both leavers, remainers, labour and tories. a) People wanted certainty over Brexit, Labour didn’t offer that, sat on the fence and so appeared to ignore the mostly “Leave” nature of their less metropolitan voters. Guess what happened. I said before that they are seen as “london Labour” and this seems to be borne out by the rural/metropolitan voting patterns. b) Corbyn was hated and mistrusted even more than Johnson. Outside of his fan club and front bench he was seen as a liability based upon…oh, I dunno, everything he’s said and done in parliament for the last 35 years. He was a terrible choice as leader in the first place. c) Labour’s massive spending and re-nationalisation commitments in their manifesto appeared unreasonable and reminiscent of past labour dark-days. i.e. on-the-hoof committing 58 billion to compensate a group of women who were given notice of their pension equalisation nearly 25 years ago. Popular with them I’m sure but again, it feeds into the historical labour perception. The loudest mood music I heard both here (in the traditionally tory south-east) and in my home area of the north-east (traditionally labour) was very strongly that Corbyn was a turn-off and no-one trusted him or his front-bench (apart from Starmer) and nor did they want to prolong the Brexit process. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/195 "2019-12-13T10:16:52Z")
I just spoke to my Brit buddy, who is beaming and happy he waited before converting British pounds to Thai baht. The pound is up 3% on the election. (Never mind that it is still well below its pre-Brexit level.) So I wondered: If Labour had won, would the pound have dropped significantly? Would it be fair to say that voters felt they were presented with two choices: - Exit from the EU now. - No, let’s have another year or two of dithering and uncertainty. ? If so, the vote would seem to be less an endorsement of Brexit than a rejection of chaos. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/196 "2019-12-13T10:34:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Boris Johnon takes a lot of flak on this board but here in the UK we know just what an astute politician he is. Love him or hate him you should never underestimate him. “Astute” in the same sense Trump is astute, by which I mean “utterly without shame”. One can accomplish a lot if one has no scruples and a lot of money. > [@casdave](#): > > I will also add something else, UK folk are somewhat dogged and determined, push them, try to frighten them and they will just dig in out of sheer defiance and push back against you hard. This is nonsense. The Conservative campaign was nothing BUT scare tactics. Even in this thread one can see the hyperbolic anti-Corbyn rhetoric openly spread and rarely challenged. Right-wing scare tactics have a long history of working in this country. It’s why the Daily Mail continues to be as successful as it is. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Nope, because those who voted for the Tories voted for a really right wing version of Tories and everyone on here who’s British knows that. > > Johnson is openly racist and sexist and says things like children of working women are more likely to be muggers. He lies, lies, lies, and lies again, and does it so much that it’s hard to keep up. He hid from almost almost all interviews in this election. > > He copied Trump, and Trump won. They even both do the stupid hair thing. > > Umunna wouldn’t have won, Smith wouldn’t have won, Cooper wouldn’t have won, no Labour leader would have won, because when people are literally choosing a person like Johnson, they are not choosing on policies, they’re consciously choosing someone who they know is a vile bastard. > > And every single person who voted Tory voted to make my life much, much more difficult. I do hate them, because it would honestly be a little weird not to hate people like that, right? > > And they’ll turn up at hospital and demand care and complain about not getting it and they fucking voted for it. > [@Mrs\_McGinty](#): > > Keep thinking like that and you’ll keep helping the Tories win. Yes, it’s our fault that other people believe lies, and its our fault that their feelings are hurt when we point out that they are believing lies, and it’s our fault that they applaud and enable open corruption in politicians they like and eschew any responsibility for holding them accountable. And when the consequences of their actions occur, they’ll claim that that’s all our fault too. It’s funny how Hillary Clinton and Jeremy Corbyn are blamed for every flaw, while Johnson and Trump are given a pass by those saying “Well, the other side should have run a better campaign” and while ignoring years-long well-funded (by whom?)nasty propaganda campaigns. The Conservatives literally made up both a fake fact-checking site and a fake Labour manifesto site. When Boris took a hit for ignoring the photo of the boy on the floor of the hospital, a fake email originating from Matt Hancock’s office was circulated claiming that the picture was faked. What went on this election cycle is unprecedented in recent British history, and it is only going to get worse, You say we shouldn’t “dare” to blame the loss on what actually happened; I say don’t **you** dare to dump this all on Corbyn. Seriously, fuck that noise. **SciFiSam** is right - if it hadn’t been Corbyn, the smear machine would have targeted whoever was at the helm. Believing that if only Labour (or the Democrats) had the perfect candidate everything would have come out sunshine, lollipops and rainbows - _that’s_ what will keep helping the Tories/Republicans win. > [@adaher](#): > > So why did the right wing tabloids defeat the great BBC, which supposedly insures that there’s a fair debate in Britain? . Because the Conservatives have taken over the BBC. Did you not know? The editor of the Today Programme, the flagship Radio 4 news show, is a former Telegraph and Daily Mail editor and friends with the same media oligarchs who have been backing Boris. Laura Kuenssberg didn’t even pretend to be objective in her political reporting. The BBC has long abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/197 "2019-12-13T10:53:04Z")
Luciana Berger lost in Finchley and Golders Green, a seat the Conservatives retained. I was hoping she’d be returned to Parliament. > **[Tories see off Lib Dem threat to keep Finchley and Golders Green](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mike-freer-luciana-berger-golders-green-finchley-a4312586.html)** > > Luciana Berger has failed to pull off a shock victory in Finchley and Golders Green for the Liberal Democrats in a bitterly disappointing night for the party. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/198 "2019-12-13T11:06:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I just spoke to my Brit buddy, who is beaming and happy he waited before converting British pounds to Thai baht. The pound is up 3% on the election. (Never mind that it is still well below its pre-Brexit level.) > > So I wondered: If Labour had won, would the pound have dropped significantly? I expect so, yes. Their spending plans required more borrowing, which I think would weaken the pound in the short term. > [@](#): > > Would it be fair to say that voters felt they were presented with two choices: > > - Exit from the EU now. > - No, let’s have another year or two of dithering and uncertainty. > ? If so, the vote would seem to be less an endorsement of Brexit than a rejection of chaos. I think that’s a fair assessment, yes, and something the Labour campaign failed to adequately address. > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Luciana Berger lost in Finchley and Golders Green, a seat the Conservatives retained. I was hoping she’d be returned to Parliament. > [Mike Freer sees off competition from Lib Dem hopeful Luciana Berger to hold Finchley and Golders Green | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/mike-freer-luciana-berger-golders-green-finchley-a4312586.html) I guess even a Jewish candidate wasn’t enough to overcome the lack of leadership shown on the anti-Semitism issue. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/199 "2019-12-13T11:17:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > **SciFiSam** is right - if it hadn’t been Corbyn, the smear machine would have targeted whoever was at the helm. Believing that if only Labour (or the Democrats) had the perfect candidate everything would have come out sunshine, lollipops and rainbows - _that’s_ what will keep helping the Tories/Republicans win. You don’t need a perfect candidate, and of course there are no guarantees, but even just someone who hasn’t been utterly useless would be a start. The majority of their own members have been saying it ever since he was elected, the people on the doorstep have been telling them as much since he was elected. “Competent” was all that was needed, “actively repulsive and indecisive” is what labour chose. I’m on record right on this board saying that it was no good picking someone that energised a party of a million members, if ultimately he chased away an even greater number of less fanatical voters. So it proved and Labour had fair warning, even as recently as the potential government of national unity in which the dear leader simply had to take charge, even though he was being told how toxic that was. His smears are all his own doing because the record shows what he has said and done, the views he’s held, the policies he espouses, the people he associates with and those he refuses to distance himself from. All of it made him unsuitable and unfit from the start. One the biggest issue of the day he couldn’t even bring himself to pick a side, even though he had been a “leave” person right up until political expediency suggested he pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/200 "2019-12-13T11:37:37Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I guess even a Jewish candidate wasn’t enough to overcome the lack of leadership shown on the anti-Semitism issue. Luciana Berger was the LibDem candidate. Now, to other questions on the fallout - which ejected MP should we expect to see in next year’s Strictly Come Dancing? Jo Swinson? Zac Goldsmith? Nigel Dodds? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639.md?page=11)