# U.K. General Election December 2019 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 29, 2019, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639 "2019-10-29T11:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/221 "2019-12-13T16:05:42Z")
Here’s CNN’s early overview of the results: [Johnson's won the election but he may struggle to keep the UK together | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/uk/ge19-intl-gbr-johnson-scotland-northern-ireland/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/222 "2019-12-13T16:34:41Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > I doubt we’d agree on much politically, **casdave** , but this last is certainly true - we can only vote for what’s in front of us, and Labour were not electable. For Brexit, they only offered more uncertainty for both sides and the large number of Labour voters who wanted to Leave went straight over. > > I still believe that the UK is better off in the EU than out of it, but I now believe that we will leave the EU early next year. That certainty will help. If we’re looking to the future, then what Labour should be doing right now is writing down every single one of Boris Johnson’s promises, and then hounding him over the next five years to ensure he delivers on those promises. I suppose that could backfire if Johnson does actually deliver everything he promises. However, 1) it would be good for the country if he did so, and 2) Johnson has a habit of glibly promising listeners whatever he thinks they want to hear so it will be unlikely he’ll deliver everything he says he will. It seems like the voters gave Johnson a pass on being dishonest and unreliable in this election. I don’t think they’ll give him a pass for the next five years. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/223 "2019-12-13T16:37:33Z")
If Labour hold Boris to account then we all get what we want - Labour gets policies that it promotes and the population benefits - but of course Labour isn’t interested in the policies as such, it just wants power ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/224 "2019-12-13T16:39:12Z")
And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isn’t a way to win a FPTP election. And yes, you’d have to be a fool not to understand that Brexit fatigue is a real thing. A lot of people just don’t want to hear that damn word ever again. Perhaps a Labour platform of we’re revoking Article 50 and no new referendum for at least ten years would have given people something to vote for rather than Corbyn waffles. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/225 "2019-12-13T17:28:21Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > If Labour hold Boris to account then we all get what we want - Labour gets policies that it promotes and the population benefits - but of course Labour isn’t interested in the policies as such, it just wants power A charge that could never be aimed at the Tories (or any other politician’s), oh no. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/226 "2019-12-13T18:02:54Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I think we all need to calm down - there’s no indication that the NHS will be sold and people with long term disabilities don’t pay for medication as it stands. We’re worried about underfunding and increasing costs, but there’s no suggestion that we’ll all have to start paying for medication at US levels.The NHS is still a large negotiating block on drug prices. Not quite true about prescriptions. People with long-term disabilities don’t get free prescriptions unless they have one of a very limited set of conditions (diabetes, thyroid disease, cancer, and some people with epilepsy, plus a couple of less common conditions). Losing a limb, using a wheelchair full time, being blind, etc - those do not entitle you to free prescriptions. Some disabled people might be eligible for free prescriptions due to low income, but people without disabilities are also entitled to apply for an exemption on income grounds - disability has nothing to do with it. I agree that we won’t have to start paying for medication at US levels though, not as individuals. The concern is that the NHS will have to start paying more, and it’s already underfunded and tightly stretched. Waiting times are conditions at hospitals are pretty much guaranteed to get worse, and I don’t think many Tory supporters even deny that. Private companies have been handed a lot of contracts in recent years, so it’s not like fears of privatisation are unfounded. The mandate the Tories have been handed, and the way the NHS was a main feature of the Labour campaign but didn’t win them votes, that does make me concerned that back-door privatisation might proceed fairly quickly, because the elements within the Tory party that want it will feel like they’ve been given permission to go ahead. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > This is \*Boris \*Johnson right? A man ridiculed and dismissed by the press for the last 20+ years, \*that \*\*Boris \*Johnson? How do you or I know about those idiotic things he’s done or said? > > I’d say your perception is seriously skewed. Every mis-step of Boris was trumpeted loudly. Which of them were not? how do you know about them if they were minimised or ignored? He’s a buffoon and has been painted as one for ever. and everyone knows it. He has been ridiculed for being a buffoon, and that’s distracted the press from writing very much about his actual faults. The Conservatives, for example, also have a problem with anti-semitism; for example, their candidate in Aberdeen was suspended for saying that some of the events in the Holocaust were fabricated. ([Link](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tory-aberdeen-candidate-ryan-houghton-suspended-holocaust-tweets). If that had been a prospective Labour MP, that story would have been way bigger than it was. Pretty much every mis-step both leaders and their parties made was reported, but the volume of articles that were against Corbyn was far larger. For example: > [@](#): > > In addition, almost twice as much unchallenged airtime was given to people criticising Mr Corbyn than his allies on the BBC From here: [Media 'persistently' biased against Jeremy Corbyn, academic study finds | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-party-media-reform-coalition-birkbeck-a7163706.html) But it was Brexit that cost Labour the votes more than anything else, going on what I’ve seen people who used to vote Labour say. Labour were proposing to strike a deal and then give people a referendum on that deal, which seems like a sensible approach to me. But an awful lot of people just want Brexit at any cost. And a lot of Labour supporters and people who vote between Labour the LibDems would have turned against them if they went out and out pro-Brexit, so there was no way for them to win, really. The LibDems didn’t do very well either, while running on a strong remain platform. Their own leader lost her seat. That’s a pretty good indication that Brexit was the main issue. Oh and Scotland was lost to the SNP, basically. They have popular policies and a strong leader and have been getting stronger and stronger for the past few years. Labour didn’t do well there, but neither did the Tories - both lost seats and vote share to the SNP, with Labour losing more of both. Scotland voted 62% in favour of remain in the referendum. In general in England and Wales there’s been a strong correlation between leave votes and Tory votes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/227 "2019-12-13T18:09:10Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isn’t a way to win a FPTP election. > > And yes, you’d have to be a fool not to understand that Brexit fatigue is a real thing. A lot of people just don’t want to hear that damn word ever again. Perhaps a Labour platform of we’re revoking Article 50 and no new referendum for at least ten years would have given people something to vote for rather than Corbyn waffles. Purges? Boris sacked 21 MPs just a few months ago! If Labour are guilty of moving to the fringes, then so are the Tories. Why would you bring it up as a point only against Labour when the Tories have been at least as bad? The LibDems did campaign on a platform of revoking article 50, and they did badly in an election where they should have been poised to do well. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/228 "2019-12-13T18:09:54Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > And yet rose Twitter (UK) is still living in LaLa land, blaming the media and Blairites. Everyone told you they hated Corbyn, maybe you should listen. But no, they continued on with the purity purges (How many shadow cabinet shakeups and resignations?) For the fringe, not the many isn’t a way to win a FPTP election. And though Labour recorded their worst results in 80 years, who is still clinging on to their position? He seems to have zero self-awareness as to where the problem lies. I find it astonishing that he hasn’t resigned yet. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/229 "2019-12-13T18:13:33Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I find it astonishing that he hasn’t resigned yet. He’s got to wait until Seumas, Andrew and Len decide what to do. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/230 "2019-12-13T18:46:59Z")
**ScifiSam** > [@](#): > > The LibDems didn’t do very well either, while running on a strong remain platform. That is one interpretation of their position, now look at this through the lens of the Leave voter - the majority in England. What you are actually saying to the Leave voter is not ‘a strong Remain platform’, what they get from that is the the LibDems have made it a party policy to ignore the democratic wishes of the majority - in other words a political hijack in an attempt to garner support to compel a majority to live under a minority rule. I do think that the LibDems did believe it was a Remain platform - it was nothing of the sort, it was an attempted coup. Its that lack of being able to look at the world from the viewpoint of the other side of the debate that has done for them, same as Labour. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/231 "2019-12-13T18:58:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And though Labour recorded their worst results in 80 years, who is still clinging on to their position? He seems to have zero self-awareness as to where the problem lies. I find it astonishing that he hasn’t resigned yet. He has said he’s standing down. It’s been less than a day since the results. > [@casdave](#): > > **ScifiSam** > > That is one interpretation of their position, now look at this through the lens of the Leave voter - the majority in England. > > What you are actually saying to the Leave voter is not ‘a strong Remain platform’, what they get from that is the the LibDems have made it a party policy to ignore the democratic wishes of the majority - in other words a political hijack in an attempt to garner support to compel a majority to live under a minority rule. > > I do think that the LibDems did believe it was a Remain platform - it was nothing of the sort, it was an attempted coup. > > Its that lack of being able to look at the world from the viewpoint of the other side of the debate that has done for them, same as Labour. You’re reading a lot of things in there that I never said. The LibDems had a strong remain platform in the sense that they were strongly against Brexit. That’s it. I’m not saying anything to the leave voter other than that the LibDems campaigned on a platform of remaining, which is factually true. It’s a bit odd to take offence at that. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/232 "2019-12-13T19:13:02Z")
Sorry but I am not trying to interpret you directly - what I am trying to do is try imagine how an angry Leave voter might have viewed your statement about the LibDem position, rather than anything that you intended. I do not dispute what you have posted - nor your intention, but look at it from the viewpoint of someone 180 degrees away who brings their own baggage with them. Its that inability of the opposition to see themselves as others see them that has led to their downfall, instead they saw themselves in the way they would like to be seen - a very different thing and the reason they still cannot understand why they were unable to communicate their message effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/233 "2019-12-13T19:23:45Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > He has said he’s standing down. It’s been less than a day since the results. I don’t think any other leader, when faced with such a historical defeat of such a clearly personal nature, would wait any longer than lunchtime. However, I’m not surprised in the least that he hasn’t gone at once, it is entirely in keeping with his vanity. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/234 "2019-12-13T20:18:51Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Sorry but I am not trying to interpret you directly - what I am trying to do is try imagine how an angry Leave voter might have viewed your statement about the LibDem position, rather than anything that you intended. > > I do not dispute what you have posted - nor your intention, but look at it from the viewpoint of someone 180 degrees away who brings their own baggage with them. > > Its that inability of the opposition to see themselves as others see them that has led to their downfall, instead they saw themselves in the way they would like to be seen - a very different thing and the reason they still cannot understand why they were unable to communicate their message effectively. OK, I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t think even angry leave voters would have reacted that way. Leave voters aren’t automatically stupid just because they voted leave, and the stupid ones don’t tend to analyse sentences in great depth. Plus I’m not 180 degrees away from leave voters - I voted remain and would do so again, but there are some problems with the EU and I’m not blind to them. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think any other leader, when faced with such a historical defeat of such a clearly personal nature, would wait any longer than lunchtime. > > However, I’m not surprised in the least that he hasn’t gone at once, it is entirely in keeping with his vanity. But he hasn’t. He’s said he’s standing down. He hasn’t done an official resignation speech yet, but he’s made it clear that he’s leaving. David Cameron started this whole mess, campaigned strongly for remain, and lost, and he took a couple of weeks to resign, and that’s the closest comparison in living memory. Cameron’s delay was partly due to timing, coming during the summer parliamentary recess, and similar problems present when electing a new leader of the Labour party over Christmas. Parliament will be recessed for two weeks over Christmas, and there won’t be any PMQs before then due to the need to have sessions to formally announce the new parliament. It’s not a good time of year for parties to start up leadership campaigns and the new leader won’t be doing anything other than ceremonial in parliament at all. Taking on the Labour leadership right now is a poisoned chalice. It’ll be five years till the next general election, and the person who leads Labour then is unlikely to be the person who takes on the role now, due to the amount of rebuilding that will need to take place. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/235 "2019-12-13T20:49:51Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > But he hasn’t. He’s said he’s standing down. He hasn’t done an official resignation speech yet, but he’s made it clear that he’s leaving. David Cameron started this whole mess, campaigned strongly for remain, and lost, and he took a couple of weeks to resign, and that’s the closest comparison in living memory. Not the same thing at all. Cameron did not lose an election. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/236 "2019-12-13T21:02:21Z")
A new thread on the next Labour leader: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=886779](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=886779) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/237 "2019-12-13T21:05:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Not the same thing at all. Cameron did not lose an election. What other comparison are you thinking of then? When has any leader ever stood down by lunchtime on the same day the results are announced? It’s a shit time of year for Labour to run a campaign for a new leader, and there’s no automatic candidate. There aren’t going to be any PMQs, local elections, or anything serious for quite a while. It’s better for Corbyn to ride out this time and take the flack for his failure to win people over rather than leave straight away and let someone else take all those problems on and probably poison their own future career. If he’d left straight away people would be criticising him for leaving whatever interrim leader there was to deal with his mess. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/238 "2019-12-13T21:25:22Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > What other comparison are you thinking of then? When has any leader ever stood down by lunchtime on the same day the results are announced? The difficulty with a direct comparison is finding a two-time loser political leader of historic unpopularity that has suffered such a humiliating defeat and that is based largely on their own personal qualities. I’m not sure one exists. It was humiliating. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_McGinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6bbea6/32.png) [@Mrs\_McGinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_McGinty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/239 "2019-12-13T21:34:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, it’s our fault that other people believe lies, and its our fault that their feelings are hurt when we point out that they are believing lies, and it’s our fault that they applaud and enable open corruption in politicians they like and eschew any responsibility for holding them accountable. And when the consequences of their actions occur, they’ll claim that that’s all our fault too. The fault is in acting smugly pious and morally superior to a huge swathe - possibly an outright majority - of the people whose votes Labour needs to win. The vox pops on radio 5 today showed this as clear as day: the red wall collapsed as life-long Labour voters stayed at home or switched to the Tories because the latter tried to offer them what they wanted instead of insulting them for wanting the wrong things. Most of them are never going to like or trust the Tories, but they’ll sure as hell won’t back a Labour Party that keeps calling them stupid and/or evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_McGinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6bbea6/32.png) [@Mrs\_McGinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_McGinty)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639/240 "2019-12-13T21:49:46Z")
Looking at the same issue from a slightly different perspective, one of the best comments I heard about the loss of northern towns was that the Labour leadership treats people up there like children. There’s a profound sense that the defence of their interests is up with the most important purposes of the party, but an equally profound sense that they can’t be trusted to judge those interests for themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-general-election-december-2019/842639.md?page=13)