:smack: Thank you. That is more surprising in that case.
Luciana Berger was a defection to the Liberal Democrats, and also switched constituencies. She turned a 2 horse race into a 3 horse race and trounced the Labour candidate, but only pulled a minor amount of votes from the Conservative incumbent. Finchley and Golders Green is a London seat, and in terms of voter share, the Lib Dems did very well in London. However, they only gained 2 seats in London (including St Albans) and these gains were offset by three lost seats elsewhere.
It’s actually hard to get a detailed picture of the Lib Dem results because there was so much switching around. I know that no one who switched parties is returning to Parliament, but there’s no list that I’ve seen of what happened to the temporary gains. For that matter, I can see that the Liberal Democrats won three new seats, which means they lost four, but besides Jo Swinson, I can’t see what the other three are.
So my BFF lives over there, she is extremely disabled and cannot live without medication. Do you think once the NHS is sold that they will create new limited welfare programs for the worst off who can’t work at all? Or will everyone who can’t get a good enough job to afford their medication just die now? I’m trying to help her not panic, but I don’t know if there is any actual hope to give her. Even in the US we have programs for the worst off, still. Trump hasn’t gotten rid of everything yet. I don’t know if he just hasn’t been in office long enough, or if the most extreme disabled will almost always be safe. Does anyone have any idea how bad it’s going to get?
Zac Goldsmith lost?? How did I miss this! Every cloud has a sparkly lining. Just about rescued my weekend, that.
But they weren’t. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Corbyn - his utter lack of leadership either of his own party or as Leader of the Opposition, and some odd policies (I mean, “a four-day week”? Really?) and his own lacklustre media strategy. But those weren’t what was being bandied about - what was being circulated and rehashed over and over were gross misrepresentations and outright lies about “what he has said and done, the views he’s held, the policies he espouses, the people he associates with and those he refuses to distance himself from”. He was portrayed as a Maoist extremist for wanting to privatise rail, water, mail services, policies that would have placed the UK on par with the leftist hellhole of…Ireland. References to his association with “terrorists” always seemed to lack context for why he was talking to them (hint: not because he secretly admired them). His policies were far better costed out than the Conservatives’ were, yet Labour spending plans were consistently portrayed as profligate while Conservative ones were represented as “investments”.
And where was the same level of scrutiny of Boris Johnson, a man literally fired from a previous job for lying? His tenure as mayor was a disaster; he closed fire and police stations right and left and wasted tens of millions on a garden bridge no one wanted but which would have benefited his rich cronies. His tenure as Foreign Secretary was worse, with embarrassment after embarrassment culminating in him screwing up so badly he got a British citizen’s Iranian prison sentence extended for three years (after doing absolutely nothing on her case for the previous 18 months). That last one should have gotten him shunned from all polite society, but then nothing about the society he moves in is “polite”. He lied his way through the Brexit referendum, he lied his way through the Tory leadership contest and he lied his way through the latest campaign, and yet the reaction in the media was “Eh, that’s just Boris”.
And this is the point. Corbyn’s issues were magnified, misrepresented and supplemented with pure bullshit. Johnson’s were minimised or outright ignored. That is the problem here - not Labour v Tory, Johnson v Corbyn or even Leave v Remain - it’s Truth v Lies, and Lies won the day hands down. And that wasn’t Corbyn’s fault.
I don’t know what to tell you that won’t dishearten you, except to say that it’s already pretty bad. Your BFF may more likely be aware of the potential issues than we are; of board members SciFiSam will likely have more directly relevant info but I obviously can’t commit her to a response.
I think we all need to calm down - there’s no indication that the NHS will be sold and people with long term disabilities don’t pay for medication as it stands. We’re worried about underfunding and increasing costs, but there’s no suggestion that we’ll all have to start paying for medication at US levels.The NHS is still a large negotiating block on drug prices.
Thanks for replying, anyway. I was just grasping at straws, hoping someone here would know something positive. I wish evil people didn’t exist.
Agree with SanVito - I think the creeping privatisation of the NHS will continue (just as with many other public services), but while I’m not particularly in favour of that I don’t think it means it will radically change overnight. In particular I think prescriptions will remain modestly priced (and free for those who need them to be) for a very long time.
Gyrate, while I largely agree with you, I think there was also a significant portion of the electorate (me, for one, though I didn’t vote Tory as I do feel this campaign was a new low for them in fabrication, and that’s not what I want to see) who did not believe the propaganda about Corbyn and know Johnson is a selfish charlatan - and yet still believe Johnson would be a better Prime Minister than Corbyn. So while you are right to rail against everything you mention, I think it is also fair to point a finger at Corbyn and Labour’s failings.
We do know that the civil servants here are assuming the US will want medication prices as paid by the NHS on the table as and when negotiations get under way on a trade deal. What that would mean, in terms of availability and possible supplementary charges, simply cannot be predicted until such negotiations get under way.
We also know that sub-contracting of NHS services already includes some US companies, which isn’t of itself the same as selling it all off and letting commercial companies make patients pay. However, trade deals have in the past included provisions that might allow commercial companies to use dispute resolution tribunals to force opening up public services to commercial competition.
There are some people in the Tory party who want to move to an insurance-based, rather than taxation-based, model. This has always been assumed to be a political kiss of death if taken seriously; hence repeated promises that none of this is on the table. But who knows how emboldened such people might be now, or what Johnson’s trade negotiators might be forced to concede?
This is *Boris *Johnson right? A man ridiculed and dismissed by the press for the last 20+ years, *that **Boris *Johnson? How do you or I know about those idiotic things he’s done or said?
I’d say your perception is seriously skewed. Every mis-step of Boris was trumpeted loudly. Which of them were not? how do you know about them if they were minimised or ignored? He’s a buffoon and has been painted as one for ever. and everyone knows it.
Wait, I thought these elections were about Brexit. Why is everyone taking about the NHS?
If trade renegotiations do not go well with the EU there might be a need for closer trade relations with the US, and the conditions for such a deal might involve opening up the health care industry to competition (i.e. from US corporations) which would involve weakening the NHS. ETA in addition to any internal privatization tendencies that the Conservatives with a “mandate” might push forward which I am not aware of.
Whoosh!
Thats accurate. I wasn’t too clear in my original post. Rural areas tended to be socially conservative and economically liberal under FDR, but when the democrats stood up for civil rights starting in the 50s and 60s, rural whites abandoned the democrats and became republicans who were both economically and socially conservative.
southern democrats voted against civil rights, but they voted for things like social security, the new deal, medicare, medicaid, etc.
To me thats confusing, because identity politics on the left is largely (from what I see) a response to identity politics on the right.
On the right they push a narrative of social hierarchies and that some groups are more authentic and more deserving of dignity, respect and rights than others.
The left is to a large degree a coalition of the out-groups that are rejected by the right, and their allies. Non-whites, non-heterosexuals, women, non-christians, immigrants, etc banding together to protect their rights and dignity from assault by the right.
I don’t understand why rejection of identity politics would make someone a republican. The entire republican platform is identity politics (fear and resentment towards out-groups). If you watch fox news, its pretty much all fear, rejection and resentment towards out-groups. Scary muslims, scary immigrants, scary black people, uppity women, etc.
Gyrate
…and you continue to post in a manner that will keep the Tories in power - first thing you need to learn about politics is that your own activists are a terrible source of direction - you always need to look at your opponents and understand why they are gaining support.
Labour activists convinced themselves and each other, they spent all their time talking to the wrong people.
Standing at the pulpit trying to convert your congregation will not bring the heathens through the doors - and that is largely what Labour activists did - instead of talking to the people they need to convince.
As for your comment on the electorate believing lies after lies - I think its fair to say that the part of social media where I inhabit was absolutely full of vile lies about Johnson and utterly misrepresented both the Leave voter and the Tories and those who might vote Tory.
Think about this, I’ve been around a long time, and I am clued up enough to know when I am being lied to - and that is the position of many voters - for you to imply that we are so naive and clueless, or perhaps bordering on evil and selfish that we can’t separate wheat from chaff is simply a continuation of the insult.
Many of have been Labour voters for generations, I have seen groups such as Left Unity and Momentum close up - very very close up indeed - for years and I really do not like what I see. Their vile methods are every bit as bad as nepotism and anyone who expresses mild concern and suggest alternatives get slaughtered on Twitter and Instagram.
You want a change then you need to get Labour to work for my vote - In my constituency the swing was 21% away from Labour, Yvette Cooper got in by the skin of her teeth losing most of her 14k majority - and that is simply down to her insistence of blocking Leave when her mandate in her seat was 70%.
If the electorate goes against the wishes of the party, it is not because they are scared or gullible and intellectually too feeble to discern how they should have voted, its because the party does not represent them and they pay the cost - too many Labour safe seats seem to take us for granted. well hard luck.
There will be a bounceback at the next election - but only if people such as yourself and Labour representatives stop giving out wish list policies, and deciding how the electorate should vote - you have it the wrong way around - we didn’t vote wrongly, Labour went in the wrong direction.
Before you try to write off everything I have posted as some reactionary and illogical message - cross over the divide for a few seconds, why did I really vote against Labour - me - a long standing mid level trade union rep with a lifelong habit of voting Labour, having stood on windswept plazas handing out leaflets, freezing cold, gone around door to door posting more campaign leaflets, written reports and contributions to union policy bodies, attended and voted at conference and proposed motions and had them adopted.
I am as cynical as they come, but I see the people controlling Labour and it is not pretty, its a thread I’ve seen go right the way down through the union where I have seen very senior activists promoting Hugo Chavez, Cuba Solidarity, pro Palestinian groups when my members have been getting no pay rise for years upon years - the same members who wonder what the hell has Cuba, or Venezuela has to do with their poll tax or their pay rise - and when I have gathered their views in a coherant manner and asked about things like this I just get stared down and find it extremely difficult to get my members views across in a room full of Communist activists who are Bang On Right On.
You want to know why Labour has lost so much support - don’t decry me, and don’t decry the voters - its all the making of Labour, not backing a democratic referendum vote, going directly against the wishes of its members in regions such as South Yorkshire.
Look at what I have posted about Labour failures, it will not be the gospel by any means and I accept some of my reality is not your reality - read my perceptions, try to understand why I think the way I do - but for crying out loud - DO NOT TELL ME I AM WRONG because blaming the electorate is about the most stupid thing any political party can ever do
Well said Casdave, I’m not a labour activist but I know people who have been and have had much the same experience as you.
As for the electorate? Would that be the same electorate who were apparently so easily hoodwinked in England by tory tricks and media but when provided with a coherent and credible alternative (the SNP for example) were somehow magically able see through the lies and spin? Are Scottish people somehow much more perceptive and intelligent? Or is it more likely (and much less condescending) to accept that people are able to decide what appeals to them and able to take a grown-up decision all on their own and judge the offerings on their own merits.
Rhetorical questions of course Casdave, not aimed at you.
I doubt we’d agree on much politically, casdave, but this last is certainly true - we can only vote for what’s in front of us, and Labour were not electable. For Brexit, they only offered more uncertainty for both sides and the large number of Labour voters who wanted to Leave went straight over.
I still believe that the UK is better off in the EU than out of it, but I now believe that we will leave the EU early next year. That certainty will help.
I hesitate to say…
casdave is right about the state of the Party - and many of the unions too- these days though. It’s the same old SWP/Militant/<insert far-left micro-groupuscule here> headbangers that Kinnock thought he had finally purged.