# U.K. Woes - A Little Help? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 1, 2001, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671 "2001-02-01T03:40:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/21 "2001-02-01T12:18:21Z")
Yes, yes (and no, it’s not always a popular term over here) and it’s not the _British_ Lions. ---
**Author:** ![ronan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@ronan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/22 "2001-02-01T13:14:28Z")
Have a look here [http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/](http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/23 "2001-02-01T14:20:07Z")
Of course, there’s always searching the Straight Dope Archives: [What’s the difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain, and England?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/muk.html) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/24 "2001-02-01T19:07:27Z")
Thanks for finally correcting the errors in the original Mailbag item, Dex 😉 **hibernicus** wrote: > [@](#): > > Norman Davies is very entertaining, and I’ve read all his books, but he’s not always to be trusted. I haven’t read _The Isles_, but I did read an article in one of the Irish papers a few months ago devoted entirely to all the errors the book contains. Davies messed up on a lot of really basic stuff (most notably, but not only, the civil war outcome) and apparently got his information on the Croke Park massacre straight from the Michael Collins film. Tread carefully with this one. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/25 "2001-02-01T19:27:22Z")
And didn’t Berwick-upon-Tweed have some special significance at one time (as being neither England nor Scotland)? ---
**Author:** ![They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@They\_Call\_Me\_Sneeze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/They_Call_Me_Sneeze)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/26 "2001-02-01T22:56:09Z")
As much as I am afraid that my can opener is poised above a can of Poisonous Worms, curiousity compels me to turn the handle. So Tony Blair is prime minister of the U.K. (which includes all of those countries and islands mentioned so intelligiently above). And Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of England. The Queen is basically a figurehead with no power, but is she a figurehead for all of the U.K., or is this an instance where it specifies England and means it? Do Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland pay attention to her, or just England? And what about back in the olden days, specifically the American Revolutionary ones. The King back then was George III, and the Prime Minister was Frederick North. Did Frederick North have anything to do with the Revolutionary War? Or back then did the King really hold the power? Like, did American colonists curse Frederick North as well as George? Who exactly am I talking about when I talk about “Brits”? Not that I often speak of Brits, but is a Brit usually an English person, a Scot a Scottish person, and a Whale a Welsch person (despite what we learned about Britain encompassing all three countries), or is a Brit a person who lives on the island? Sneeze, who is most heartily sorry for all of this ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/27 "2001-02-01T23:31:22Z")
Hi, I’m having a very slow time with SDMB at the moment, so will only mention a couple of your questions > [@](#): > > So Tony Blair is prime minister of the U.K. (which includes all of those countries and islands mentioned so intelligiently above). And Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of England No, the queen is queen of the UK. (that is, E, S, W, and N.I.) plus the “Commonwealth” (most of the former empire countries.) > [@](#): > > The Queen is basically a figurehead with no power, but is she a figurehead for all of the U.K., or is this an instance where it specifies England and means it? Do Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland pay attention to her, or just England? As above, it doesn’t mean England; it means the U.K. etc. As regards paying any attention to her, that’s more a matter of opinion 🙂 and you are so assiduously seeking the facts here > [@](#): > > Who exactly am I talking about when I talk about “Brits”? Not that I often speak of Brits, but is a Brit usually an English person, a Scot a Scottish person, and a Whale a Welsch person (despite what we learned about Britain encompassing all three countries), or is a Brit a person who lives on the island? “British” would mean anyone from Britain (tho’ it’s used perhaps to include N. Ireland loosely, there being no handy colloquial shorthand for “United Kingdom person”.) I don’t think “Brit” as a word is used much here, but it’s a useful enough term in, for instance this environment, as in "question for Brit Dopers, as differentiated from US Dopers. I am Scottish and British and European. Welsh people are Welsh and British and European English are English and Britsh and European tra la la, the World,the Universe etc. Hey, we could do it by Venn diagrams, maybe?🙂 (Of course, the words "Wales and “Welsh” are rather sneaky, as they are names applied from English, and mean “foreign”, but you don’t want to know that, do you.) Oh, boy, I bet you’re heartily sorry! Poor **Sneeze** . ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/28 "2001-02-01T23:35:44Z")
Ach, too late; Celyn got there first. What she said. Queen Elizabeth inherited the throne of Scotland as well as that of England. The two kingdoms have shared a monarch since the death of the other Queen Elizabeth in 1603. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/29 "2001-02-01T23:47:23Z")
Tony Blair is PM for the whole of Britain (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). The current Queen Elizabeth, known as Elizabeth the second (although she is only the first of Scotland, Elizabeth I predating the Union of the crowns) is Queen of England, Queen of England and Wales, Queen of Scotland, and even (I think) residually Quen of Ireland (although only claiming the six counties). She is also Queen in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Additionally she is Queen of (among others) Australia, New Zealand and Canada as well as varied Crown Colonies (Gibraltar, Anguila etc.) The crux of the War of Independence was the fact that people accepted (at least initially) dominion of the King but not of Parliament (in which they had no representation). Who is a ‘Brit’ is a contentious issue. English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are all ‘British Subjects’, the legal term. The English are likely to claim all of Britain’s greatness for itself and ignore the Celtic Fringes. There is a tendency in those fringes to accentuate their own nationality and specifically to deny all willing involvement in the negative aspects of Britishness. This despite the fact that many of the willing administrators and militarists of the empire were Scots, Welsh and Irish. As to Berwick on Tweed, this town has moved backwards and forwards between Scotland and England over the years. It is amusing to maintain that it is still at war with Russia, as a declaration of war stated that England, Scotland and Berwick declared war, but only England and Scotland were named in the peace treaty. Berwick play football (soccer) in the Scottish League, despite being in an English County. Just to confuse things, Cardiff and Swansea play in the English League, despite being in Wales, but may play in the Welsh knockout competition as well; however, if they win, they are not eligible for European competition if they win! The representative rugby team from Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Wales is historically known as the British Lions, based on the Lion as a symbol of Empire; however, political correctness (especially in Eire) insists on the anachronism of the British and Irish Lions. Rugby is one of the few arenas where nationalism verging on racism is still acceptable, so i would like to point out that (although the best Rugby in the world is played in the area south of the equator, north of that line there is really only one team that plays well and that is England (and the Lions when they are playing and made up mostly of English players); France, Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are mere bit players. Any English losses are mere aberrations. The Six Nations Championship starts on Saturday. Light blue touch paper and retire! If you really want to start a problem, look at eligibility to play soccer or rugby for Ireland, Wales, or Scotland; technically the grand-parent rule applies, which has led to Irish soccer teams having largely English accents. The Joke goes that the Irish soccer team are lined up at the start of the match, and one player says to another ‘I don’y think much of their national anthem’, and the other replies ‘Don’t be stupid, that’s ours!’ The other joke goes that the requirement to play soccer for Ireland is only to have once planned a vacation in the Emerald Isle. Can of Worms? You bet. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/30 "2001-02-02T00:01:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \* > \*\*Tony Blair is PM for the whole of Britain (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). > \*\* Believe me, I’m not nitpicking for the joy of it here, but above, you’ve placed Northern Ireland in Britain, when it is not, it being part of the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. So Blair is Prime Minister of the U.K. But, I’m dead pleased you mentioned the bit about Berwick-on-Tweed and the war with Russia, as I so nearly did, but wasn’t sufficiently confident of it to do. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/31 "2001-02-02T00:20:31Z")
Sorry about your nit-picking, but the 1973 Government Almanac (I’ve got it somewhere on my shelves) stated that although Great Britain referred to England, Scotland and Wales, the word Britain (for Government purposes) would mean all areas for wich Parliament had direct responsibilities, i.e. Great Britain plus NI. Confusing. As support I would also introduce the Ulster Unionists claim to be British. As I repeated, a can of worms! ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/32 "2001-02-02T01:18:45Z")
**Pjen** From Encyclopaedia Britannica online [http://members.eb.com/bol/topic?eu=120033&sctn=1#s\_top](http://members.eb.com/bol/topic?eu=120033&sctn=1#s_top) > [@](#): > > The names United Kingdom, Great Britain, and England are often confused, even by U.K. inhabitants. England is just one country within the kingdom. Great Britain comprises England, Wales, and Scotland, \*\*while the United Kingdom also includes Northern Ireland \*\*(although the name Britain is sometimes used to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole). Wales and England were unified politically, administratively, and legally by the acts of union of 1536 and 1542. In 1707 Scotland joined England and Wales in forming a single parliament for Great Britain, although the three countries had previously shared a monarch. bolding is mine another link [http://www.robinsonresearch.com/EUROPE/BRITAIN/](http://www.robinsonresearch.com/EUROPE/BRITAIN/) > [@](#): > > **The United Kingdom includes the island of Great Britain, consisting of England, Scotland, and Wales; and Northern Ireland,** an integral component of the kingdom, occupying part of the island of Ireland. The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands in the English Channel are not part of the United Kingdom; they are direct dependencies of the British crown with substantial internal self-governing powers. The United Kingdom lies entirely within the British Isles. > **From 1801, when Great Britain and Ireland were united** , to 1922, when the Irish Free State was established, the kingdom was officially designated the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. (bolding is mine) and then, of course, most of Ireland became independent, leaving 6 counties in the north as part of the U.K. Actually, if there were a convenient, easily pronounced adjective meaning “of/from/pertaining to the U.K.”, then the Ulster Unionists would not have to use confusing, technically incorrect, terminology, but there ain’t. Well, this is longer and messier than I wanted, sorry. Maybe it is fitting for the subject matters though. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/33 "2001-02-02T01:34:29Z")
So… Does Berwick have any plans for ending the war with Russia? [Ducks and runs, giggling insanely.] ~~Baloo ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/34 "2001-02-02T01:55:00Z")
Now, **Baloo** , dear chap, what could possibly cause you to giggle insanely? Actually the good people of Berwick on Tweed seem to be a) keeping pretty stumm about their foreign policy b) rather used to getting bashed in wars anyway, to wit > [@](#): > > Berwick’s well-worn appearance seems to suit its historical role as a buffer town. …The town was captured or sacked 13 times before 1482, when it was finally made English. [http://www.berwick.org.uk/berwick/berwick.htm](http://www.berwick.org.uk/berwick/berwick.htm) c) No, Opal, you really don’t want to be here. It’s a nice place and it would be a shame to see it nuked. Naturally, it’s perfectly clear that we are talking about Berwick on Tweed (in England) rather than North Berwick (in Scotland)? Yeah, I knew you would have guessed that. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/35 "2001-02-02T02:02:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ronan \* > As far as I know it is possible for people from Northern Ireland to obtain an Irish passport as opposed to a British one. It is also technically possibly for any Irish person born before 1923 to obtain a British passport because Ireland was under British control then. \*\* Thats the Anglo-Irish agreement. Anyone living in Northern Ireland can be British or Irish as they choose and have a British or Irish Passport as they choose. It solves problems of one sort I suppose but if I can have a NI drivers license as opposed to a GB license I’d prefer to have a NI passport also. Most people I’ve met frown on Irish or British, I’d prefer Northern Irish as my nationality but I guess NI isn’t that important to have its own distinct nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/36 "2001-02-02T03:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The current Queen Elizabeth, known as Elizabeth the second (although she is only the first of Scotland, Elizabeth I predating the Union of the crowns) is Queen of England, Queen of England and Wales, Queen of Scotland, and even (I think) residually Quen of Ireland (although only claiming the six counties). Actually, no. The last Queen of England was Queen Anne, who died in 1714. Upon the Union of England and Scotland in 1707, she was made queen of the United Kingdom. All of her successors have borne a variation on this title. For example, Queen Elizabeth II’s formal title for UK purposes is “Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.” (Announced by proclamation, May 28, 1953: Halsbury’s Laws of England, Vol 8 (4th ed., 1974), para. 870.) She has other formal titles for the other Commonwealth monarchies like Canada. Also, the Channel Islands are not Crown colonies. They are dependencies on the Crown, the last remnants of the Duchy of Normandy still owing allegiance to the Queen. They are subject to British Parliament’s legislative authority, but only when that Parliament is specifically legislating for them. They have their own internal governments. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/37 "2001-02-02T11:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pushkin \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by ronan \* > > As far as I know it is possible for people from Northern Ireland to obtain an Irish passport as opposed to a British one. It is also technically possibly for any Irish person born before 1923 to obtain a British passport because Ireland was under British control then. \*\* > > Thats the Anglo-Irish agreement. Anyone living in Northern Ireland can be British or Irish as they choose and have a British or Irish Passport as they choose.\*\* Even before the Anglo-Irish agreement people born in the North of Ireland were entitled to Irish citizenship, including the right to contest parliamentary and presidential elections. It is true that the Agreement recognises the right of NI people to choose to be Irish or British _or both_, which must be very unusual in an international context. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/38 "2001-02-02T15:04:33Z")
Incidentally, isn’t “ **Celyn** ” Welsh for “ **Holly** ”? pan ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/39 "2001-02-03T07:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \* > \*\*Just to confuse things, Cardiff and Swansea play in the English League, despite being in Wales, but may play in the Welsh knockout competition as well; however, if they win, they are not eligible for European competition if they win! > \*\* At one point, Cardiff, Swansea (and Wrexham and Merthyr Tydfil, who also play in the English league pyramid) _were_ eligible for the European competitions if they won the Welsh Cup. (When did that change, BTW?) Now the Welsh representatives in Europe are drawn from the League of Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671/40 "2001-02-03T08:54:44Z")
Reply to Duke: I’m not sure when they changed the rules, but I read in the last few years that the team that lost progressed to the I think) the cup winers cup. The winner of the League of Wales still progress to the other cup- the Uefa cup. Of course, the rules for European competitions seem to change every year or so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-k-woes-a-little-help/52671.md?page=3)