# U.N. \<---\> Libya **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154 "2011-03-18T14:19:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/41 "2011-03-18T22:16:33Z")
What’s the exit strategy? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/42 "2011-03-18T22:59:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It looks like the Americans are [finally getting involved](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya). Sam, can you clarify what you mean please? Are you saying that the US has been dragging it’s feet and not been proactive? Or you want the US to be public about it or what? Or you think that the US should have just started the no fly zone bombing unilaterally? From your link: “In a \*joint \*statement to Gadhafi late Friday, the United States, Britain and France — backed by unspecified Arab countries — said a cease-fire must begin “immediately” in Libya, the French presidential palace said.” Still waiting on your cites for Bill and Hillary being “hopping mad”, and that the Obama administration has been disengaging? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/43 "2011-03-18T23:02:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What’s the exit strategy? > > Regards, > Shodan And here we go. The second we start to take action, the Republicans suddenly turn on a dime and oppose action. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/44 "2011-03-19T01:05:27Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And here we go. The second we start to take action, the Republicans suddenly turn on a dime and oppose action. No one is turning on a dime. Everyone operates under the same rubric: killing foreigners under _my_ faction, good. Killing foreigners under the other faction, bad. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/45 "2011-03-19T02:38:49Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > It wasn’t UN, but it was NATO, and included: United States, United Kingdom, Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Turkey, Netherlands and Belgium. The mission was codenamed ‘Operation Allied Force’, except in the US for some reason, maybe that’s why some Americans think they took on the serbs single-handed. In 1999, the UN issued Resolution 1244 which authorized NATO to take action in Kosovo ([http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm](http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm)). Among other things, the resolution: > [@](#): > > Decides on the deployment in Kosovo, under United Nations auspices, of international civil and security presences, with appropriate equipment and personnel as required, and welcomes the agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to such presences; . ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/46 "2011-03-19T05:10:50Z")
Frankly, I don’t really give a damn if Gadhafi wipes out rebels trying to overthrow him. Just as I would care if the rebels were on Gadhafi’s doorstep. Seems to me when you try to overthrow a government, there is an inherent risk that comes built in and if you are not successful, things will likely end badly for you. It’s the risk you take. The first US Troop’s boot to hit Libyan sand, should match the one being firmly planted in this Administration’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/47 "2011-03-19T05:16:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Lets just say having US help would make things a lot easier. The US has military resources that Canada and France can’t match, which is a function of size as much as anything; we have a bigger economy and a bigger population, and just can project more force. If anything, the US is the only country with more than two aircraft carriers in service. The other countries do not have to match America’s power. They have to have more than Libya does. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/48 "2011-03-19T05:18:36Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Frankly, I don’t really give a damn if Gadhafi wipes out rebels trying to overthrow him. Just as I would care if the rebels were on Gadhafi’s doorstep. Seems to me when you try to overthrow a government, there is an inherent risk that comes built in and if you are not successful, things will likely end badly for you. It’s the risk you take. > > The first US Troop’s boot to hit Libyan sand, should match the one being firmly planted in this Administration’s ass. Obama said he was not going to commit troops . So don’t create your criticisms. He made that very clear. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/49 "2011-03-19T05:20:18Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Frankly, I don’t really give a damn if Gadhafi wipes out rebels trying to overthrow him. Just as I would care if the rebels were on Gadhafi’s doorstep. Seems to me when you try to overthrow a government, there is an inherent risk that comes built in and if you are not successful, things will likely end badly for you. It’s the risk you take. > > The first US Troop’s boot to hit Libyan sand, should match the one being firmly planted in this Administration’s ass. You do realize that if that sentiment had been the prevailing one at Louis XVI’s court, the USA you currently know would not have come to exist? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/50 "2011-03-19T05:31:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Obama said he was not going to commit troops . So don’t create your criticisms. He made that very clear. Just leery of the giant sucking sound I’m hearing ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/51 "2011-03-19T05:36:29Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > You do realize that if that sentiment had been the prevailing one at Louis XVI’s court, the USA you currently know would not have come to exist? Not quite the same scenario, even 200+ years later Had the colonist been invading England and trying to overthrow the King, then maybe you could connect the dots ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/52 "2011-03-19T06:24:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m saying that if the US not rushing out to take the lead on this matter is of such a great operational concern for Canada and its six F-18s,\*\* then I am questioning what the hell good is it to have F-18s if it is too difficult to actually use them without US support.\*\* Well when we bought the bugs, it allowed us to retire the nuclear genie missile and go with a conventional air to air missile for dealing with bomber intrusions in the cold war, the other duties were to join the common nato aircraft pool should the cold war have gone hot. I am not actually sure why someone believes that we need US support, other than dragging the bugs across the ocean. The current generation of American bugs, does’nt have the same commonality of parts or the like. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Lazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc29f/32.png) [@Lazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/53 "2011-03-19T15:48:55Z")
I am stunned that the OP’s original questions have been almost ignored and the discussion has revolved around the practicalities of intervention. Does foreign intervention in an independent state’s civil war raise no legal or ethical issues whatsoever? Maybe I am missing something and it is barely worth thinking about, but then could someone please provide me with a clear guideline as to when intervention is legal? Justifiable? As far as I can tell the UN Charter allows the Security Council to authorize force only in the event of a threat to international peace or security. States without Security Council authorization can only use force in self-defense. I know that in practice it has been argued that “humanitarian interventions” are justified in an ever-broadening range of circumstances, and that Chapter VII of the charter has been re-interpreted accordingly. But even accepting that, is there no line to be drawn (especially when the intervention is not at the request of a government)? When is it acceptable for a foreign state or states to intervene in a civil war on the side of rebels? (For the record, I would be very happy to see Gaddafi overthrown and a more democratic regime replace him. I also fear that Gaddafi would be very happy to position himself as a defender of Libya’s sovereignty against foreign aggression.) (Also for the record, I would be very happy to see the world evolve towards a genuine world government, based on some sort of federal principles. I would just like to see it happen in a non-hypocritical way.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/54 "2011-03-19T16:00:21Z")
> [@Lazy](#): > > I am stunned that the OP’s original questions have been almost ignored and the discussion has revolved around the practicalities of intervention. Does foreign intervention in an independent state’s civil war raise no legal or ethical issues whatsoever? Maybe I am missing something and it is barely worth thinking about, but then could someone please provide me with a clear guideline as to when intervention is legal? Justifiable? > > As far as I can tell the UN Charter allows the Security Council to authorize force only in the event of a threat to international peace or security. States without Security Council authorization can only use force in self-defense. I know that in practice it has been argued that “humanitarian interventions” are justified in an ever-broadening range of circumstances, and that Chapter VII of the charter has been re-interpreted accordingly. But even accepting that, is there no line to be drawn (especially when the intervention is not at the request of a government)? > > When is it acceptable for a foreign state or states to intervene in a civil war on the side of rebels? > > (For the record, I would be very happy to see Gaddafi overthrown and a more democratic regime replace him. I also fear that Gaddafi would be very happy to position himself as a defender of Libya’s sovereignty against foreign aggression.) > > (Also for the record, I would be very happy to see the world evolve towards a genuine world government, based on some sort of federal principles. I would just like to see it happen in a non-hypocritical way.) I came into this thread to say exactly that. Nicely put! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/55 "2011-03-19T16:28:45Z")
> [@Lazy](#): > > When is it acceptable for a foreign state or states to intervene in a civil war on the side of rebels? exactly > [@](#): > > (For the record, I would be very happy to see Gaddafi overthrown and a more democratic regime replace him. I also fear that Gaddafi would be very happy to position himself as a defender of Libya’s sovereignty against foreign aggression.) I can accept either outcome, as it’s really none of our biz to interfere. If Gadhafi goes down, fine. If the rebels are unsuccessful and get squashed - that’s the risk you take. If things go badly, don’t come crying to the world for help. It’s your fight. > [@](#): > > (Also for the record, I would be very happy to see the world evolve towards a genuine world government, based on some sort of federal principles. I would just like to see it happen in a non-hypocritical way.) Here’s where I jump off - I in no way support any “one-world government” movement. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/56 "2011-03-19T18:15:41Z")
> [@Lazy](#): > > I am stunned that the OP’s original questions have been almost ignored and the discussion has revolved around the practicalities of intervention. Does foreign intervention in an independent state’s civil war raise no legal or ethical issues whatsoever? Maybe I am missing something and it is barely worth thinking about, but then could someone please provide me with a clear guideline as to when intervention is legal? Justifiable? > > As far as I can tell the UN Charter allows the Security Council to authorize force only in the event of a threat to international peace or security. States without Security Council authorization can only use force in self-defense. I know that in practice it has been argued that “humanitarian interventions” are justified in an ever-broadening range of circumstances, and that Chapter VII of the charter has been re-interpreted accordingly. But even accepting that, is there no line to be drawn (especially when the intervention is not at the request of a government)? > > When is it acceptable for a foreign state or states to intervene in a civil war on the side of rebels? If the internal situation is bad enough, it can become a threat to international (ie, external) peace and warrant UN intrusion into the State’s sovereignty. Foreign states can intervene when major harm to civilians is happening (or imminent) and the State is unwilling or unable to stop it (think famine, ect.), or is itself the perpetrator of the harm (genocide, ect.). State sovereignty does not include the unlimited power of the state to do what it wants to its own people. That’s the basis, the question is does Libya’s current situation warrant outside intrusion (or like you asked, is it justifiable here). Also, I wouldn’t view this as intervening on the side of the rebels, but on the side of the civilians. > [@](#): > > (For the record, I would be very happy to see Gaddafi overthrown and a more democratic regime replace him. I also fear that Gaddafi would be very happy to position himself as a defender of Libya’s sovereignty against foreign aggression.) > > (Also for the record, I would be very happy to see the world evolve towards a genuine world government, based on some sort of federal principles. I would just like to see it happen in a non-hypocritical way.) Does Libya’s sovereignty vest within the State or within the individual people. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/57 "2011-03-19T18:23:16Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Does Libya’s sovereignty vest within the State or within the individual people. Libya’s neighbors in the Arab League, as well as France and Britain, have recognized Libyan sovereignty as vested in the people as represented by the National Transitional Council. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/58 "2011-03-19T20:47:17Z")
Well, the bombing has started, and it looks like the US is taking a lead role. Obama says (paraphraising): “We can’t sit idly by while innocent people are being killed by the regime”. Bull and shit. We “sit idly by” all the fucking time. We did it when Iran was killing protesters, and we’re doing it now as that happens in Yemen and Bahrain. Kadhafy should have let us build a military base in Libya-- then he’d be home free! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/59 "2011-03-19T20:58:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, the bombing has started, and it looks like the US is taking a lead role. Obama says (paraphraising): “We can’t sit idly by while innocent people are being killed by the regime”. Bull and shit. We “sit idly by” all the fucking time. We did it when Iran was killing protesters, and we’re doing it now as that happens in Yemen and Bahrain. Kadhafy should have let us build a military base in Libya-- then he’d be home free! I know, right? Obama blatantly ignoring U.N. resolutions authorizing military involvement in Iran and Yemen and Bahrain! Obama, THE WORLD IS WATCHING! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154/60 "2011-03-19T21:00:20Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I know, right? Obama blatantly ignoring U.N. resolutions authorizing military involvement in Iran and Yemen and Bahrain! Obama, THE WORLD IS WATCHING! I don’t know if you’re being serious or not, but that is not what I said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-n-libya/575154.md?page=4)