# U.S.A.F. Chaplains promote misogyny, gay bashing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203 "2017-05-09T14:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/41 "2017-05-10T04:42:30Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Not analogous. Having religious beliefs that allow things you believe should be forbidden is not the same as being forced to do things you believe your religion forbids. The Air Force is not forcing him to be a female minister; they are just allowing something to exist in their organization that he believes shouldn’t. By being a Air Force officer, somebody assumes the duty of obeying military rules. There are military rules against publicly saying the policies of your service are wrong and rules against publicly saying that your fellow officers are unfit to perform their duties. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/42 "2017-05-10T12:45:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > By being a Air Force officer, somebody assumes the duty of obeying military rules. WTF? > [@](#): > > There are military rules against publicly saying the policies of your service are wrong and rules against publicly saying that your fellow officers are unfit to perform their duties. Those are non-sequiturs. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/43 "2017-05-10T12:54:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No rebuttal? Iris my case. That’s about as cornea joke as you’ve ever come up with. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/44 "2017-05-10T13:21:19Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > This has long been a matter of debate. In very broad general terms, my impression is the use of following justifications: > > Esp. for Roman Catholics, Augustines doctrine of a “Just War”. So attacking an enemy for shit and giggles (or profit for industry) is not ok, defending the life of civilians when somebody invades your territory is acceptable. > > (How much that applies to the last conflicts, and how it applies when taking part in a larger Alliance like NATO or UN, or how to invade a country to stop a massacer against civilians like Ruanda, is obviously a matter for lot of debate. But theoretically you can use that logic as good defense, just as you can point out why this specific case doesn’t meet the requirements. > > The “pastoral” \* approach: We as Christians are opposed to war, but we recognize that war will happen, and when people involved in it need spiritual care, we will help in our position as pastors (mostly the position of the Lutheran / Protestant Church here). > > Obviously, there’s a difficult line to walk between “as christian opposed to war, I would need to try and convince every doubting soldier who comes to me to oppose the war, which would be sabotage of morale etc.” and “as part of the military/ agreeing that this specific war is a necessary smaller evil than doing nothing, I must convince every doubting soldier who comes to me to go back to the front” > > I think that the old M.A.S.H series shows both Father Mulcahey (who is Catholic, but helps all faiths as best as he can and knows) and Psychatrist Friedmann as caught between “real help for the soldiers would be to send them home” vs. “War must go on”, while still being very helpful and understanding. > > As long as pastors volunteer for this and are not ordered to, I assume they have found a way to reconcile the different aspects of their faith with the military. > Though I don’t know how many reconsider and quit seeing real war up close, or judging that Military in general might be necessary, but that they can not support this specific War because of following reasons. > > - In my native language, literally Soul-care. My problem with the just-war argument is that, quite simply, most wars aren’t. Even most wars that the U.S.A. participates in. You can’t trust the leaders of this world to go to war for just reasons. If you sign up for the military, you’re providing support for whatever war the leaders get involved in during your hitch. My problem with the pastoral justification is that if Christians aren’t in the military, then no pastoral care of Christians in the military is needed either. And the reasons given in the previous paragraph serve equally well as reasons why Christians really shouldn’t be in the military. Once you’re there, you’re part of the infrastructure that enables the killing of people that God doesn’t want dead. And while I’m looking at this from a specifically Christian POV (because that’s what I am), I’d guess that this logic applies to other faith traditions as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/45 "2017-05-10T14:01:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Whether or not to use periods in an abbreviation is merely a matter of style. Whether or not it is correct depends on which style guide you are using. The U.S. Air Force might have its own preference, but that preference applies only if you are writing for a publication controlled by the U.S.A.F.'s style guide. SDMB posters aren’t subject to a style guide, so both are correct. I guess. That’s why I see a lot of N.A.S.A. abbreviations :rolleyes: If you ask the United States Air Force what it’s abbreviation is, they will tell you USAF. Now excuse me, because I have some S.C.U.B.A diving to do. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/46 "2017-05-10T15:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > “It is important to note that not all military chaplains that profess to represent Christ are ambassadors, as some are apostates. Just because Christian chaplains wear cross insignias, reference Scripture, and are amicable, it does not mean that they are regenerate, born again Christians. The Devil quoted Scripture (Matthew 4:6) and masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), which is why Christ warned: > ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” > – Matthew 7:15’” Sounds like the type of pastor who’s a little too eager to protect his position as the true leader of the flock. “Follow not those pretenders, my children. _I_ shall lead you in the light.” > [@](#): > > “I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: > “First, women are not called to be pastors, and since a chaplain is supposed to be a pastor in uniform—it exposes their rebellion. > “Second, the office is permitted for men only, and women are prohibited from teaching (1 Timothy 2:12). > “Third, people should be very worried when they see women pastors/chaplains teaching. Why? It could be God’s judgment upon them (Isaiah 3, “…and women rule over them”)!” I don’t understand what he’s getting at with “it exposes their rebellion” in his 1st point, nor the distinction between his 1st and 2nd points. As for the 3rd point, “should be” and “could be” sound awfully cagey in a “not saying just saying” sort of way. Seems like he’s just trying to appear persuasive by making a list out of a whole lot of not much. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I also dont see a debate here. I think you just started one. Seems pretty blatantly chauvinistic and homophobic to me. (Don’t know about **Czarcasm** ’s claim of racism.) Also seems like he’s deliberately undermining a superior officer. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Are we now to the point of forcing people to not follow their faith? I think defending his douchebaggery of the grounds of religious freedom is a bit dodgy. He’s free to believe what he likes. He believes the bible says women shouldn’t serve in the priesthood or whatever. But here’s the thing. The female chaplain has already been ordained and appointed by someone else. And that is out of his jurisdiction. That can’t be changed by his belief. All his words are doing is undermining the position of the female chaplain/officer. In my view, he’s not so much trying to preach a religious doctrine that he feels is important to the salvation of the congregation as he is pushing his personal prejudices against a fellow officer and chaplain because of her gender and sexual orientation and trying to turn others against her in the process. What a douchenozzle. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/47 "2017-05-10T15:33:23Z")
Give the douchenozzle a Dishonorable Discharge and see how he likes it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/48 "2017-05-10T16:35:24Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is totally incorrect. In general, Rabbis most certainly can be women. Ten percent of Jews are Orthodox. 90 percent of Jews are Reform or Conservative or unaffiliated. It is only the Orthodox that don’t ordain women. Good to know, I thought it was only Reform that accepted female Rabbis but I guess time marches on.:smack: So let us say there was a Orthodox Chaplain. And he had some Talmudic arguments that only men should be Rabbis. If he posted said arguments on a blog, should he be court martialed? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/49 "2017-05-10T18:56:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For chaplains part of their duties would include providing guidance and comfort to service men and women that follow faiths other than their own. Gasp! They may even be required to counsel homosexuals. So, yeah, the Air Force should at least monitor how they express their religious beliefs. If he is refusing to provide guidance and comfort to people who did not are homosexuals that is one thing but it does not matter if he thinks people in the military are sinful. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/50 "2017-05-10T18:58:31Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > What part of blaming bestiality on homosexuals is not gay bashing? The other posts cited are not nearly as innocuous as the titles implied. Their religious beliefs are not the issue, their public statements are. > > Again, the owner of the blog, who wrote the post calling a superior officer a liar, is an Active Duty USAF Lieutenant Colonel. Captain Hernandez is not, but he’s not really the issue here - he’s just your average loud-mouthed holier-than-thou Christian asshole. Gay bashing to me means to advocate violence against gays. If it means criticizing gay people then he may have done that. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/51 "2017-05-10T19:43:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If he is refusing to provide guidance and comfort to people who did not are homosexuals that is one thing but it does not matter if he thinks people in the military are sinful. It’s not just a matter of refusing to provide guidance and comfort to homosexual service members, but rather how much he would allow his personal beliefs of homosexuality = sin influence the kind of counseling a homosexual service man or woman would receive. For example, depressed air man or woman doesn’t need to hear about gay conversion therapy when they actually need therapy for PTSD. The posts this chaplain has made seriously question how well he can do his job and treat service personnel of different faiths objectively (and as a military chaplain objective is his job). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/52 "2017-05-10T21:24:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Good to know, I thought it was only Reform that accepted female Rabbis but I guess time marches on.:smack: > > So let us say there was a Orthodox Chaplain. And he had some Talmudic arguments that only men should be Rabbis. If he posted said arguments on a blog, should he be court martialed? If he said that only Orthodox Jewish Chaplains should be men, it would be ok. If he denigrated women by saying that they shouldn’t allowed to be chaplains at all and in addition questioned whether a homosexual female general is fit to be head of the Academy, he should be court martialed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/53 "2017-05-10T21:45:41Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > If he said that only Orthodox Jewish Chaplains should be men, it would be ok. If he denigrated women by saying that they shouldn’t allowed to be chaplains at all and in addition questioned whether a homosexual female general is fit to be head of the Academy, he should be court martialed. Perhaps there’s more on the website (which is rather biased it appears), but the Ops cites: _“I always get nervous when I see female pastors/chaplains. Here is why everyone should as well: “First, women are not called to be pastors, and since a chaplain is supposed to be a pastor in uniform—it exposes their rebellion. “Second, the office is permitted for men only, and women are prohibited from teaching (1 Timothy 2:12). “Third, people should be very worried when they see women pastors/chaplains teaching. Why? It could be God’s judgment upon them (Isaiah 3, “…and women rule over them”)!”_ Did not seem that bad. Other things imputed to them from that cite do seem over the line, admittedly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/54 "2017-05-11T02:41:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Did not seem that bad. Other than the explicit sexism, but I guess that’s okay because Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/55 "2017-05-11T03:21:35Z")
I guess it depends on who you are how bad that seems. (Whose ox being gored? In this case it was mine. I mean. You know what I mean.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/56 "2017-05-11T03:21:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > By being a Air Force officer, somebody assumes the duty of obeying military rules. There are military rules against publicly saying the policies of your service are wrong and rules against publicly saying that your fellow officers are unfit to perform their duties. I’m torn, because I don’t approve of that. You should be able to able to say that any organization you are part of is wrong, except when you are explicitly acting as a representative of that organization. But, at the same time, bigotry is wrong, and I support anything being done to stop it (as long as it will work and isn’t itself more immoral.) I guess the latter is more immoral, so I support this. But, if it was someone earlier saying “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is wrong” (back when it was policy) then I would not support it. Comparative morality, I guess. It’s about which is more wrong. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/57 "2017-05-11T03:37:00Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Hernandez also said that since General designate Goodwin’s service began before Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, she lied about not being gay in order to get into the Air Force, and therefore she is not an acceptable Commandant of Cadets. So she was **born** that way. That puts the conversion argument about GAYNESS IS LEARNED FROM THEM QUEER SCOUT LEADERS in doubt. At least for this guy ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/58 "2017-05-11T07:54:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but they dont have any problems with RC priests- they dont insist the RC church have female Priests, now do they? The RCC doesn’t have female priests but also doesn’t ban women from teaching, which these guys would. Not only are we allowed to teach in schools, and catechesis, but even on occasion we may be called to teach during Mass. These are the kind of guys who make Opus Dei look leftist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/59 "2017-05-11T16:37:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Other than the explicit sexism, but I guess that’s okay because Jesus. Or Mohamed. Or several others. Male dominated priesthood has been a thing for a 1000 years or more and it’s only recently begun to change. The USA didnt get it’s first female rabbi until 1972, Female Imams are rare as well as Hindu. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), the largest church in the movement, still restricts its priesthood to men, as do most of the other Latter Day Saint denominations. In Shinto, female priests are allowed, but remain rare. So, “because tradition”. But it’s changing. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203/60 "2017-05-11T16:45:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s not just a matter of refusing to provide guidance and comfort to homosexual service members, but rather how much he would allow his personal beliefs of homosexuality = sin influence the kind of counseling a homosexual service man or woman would receive. For example, depressed air man or woman doesn’t need to hear about gay conversion therapy when they actually need therapy for PTSD. The posts this chaplain has made seriously question how well he can do his job and treat service personnel of different faiths objectively (and as a military chaplain objective is his job). There is no reason to assume that he is bad at his job because he has controversial opinions. If he counseled someone with PTSD for something other than PTSD then that would be bad, but he has not done that. That is all hypothetical. It would be like firing all Rabbis because they might spend all the counseling time talking about kosher food instead of performing their duties. It is perfectly alright to fire someone for not doing their job, but not for expressing an unpopular opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-a-f-chaplains-promote-misogyny-gay-bashing/786203.md?page=4)