# U.S. Abortion Policy Closes African Clinics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680 "2003-09-25T02:55:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/41 "2003-09-25T11:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*The minor difference being that not a whole lot of societal debate seems to be going on whether or not gassing Jews is in fact murder. Honestly, don’t you see the distinction? \*\* I think there was a time and a place when there _was_. OK, I apologise. That example was rather too hysterical. Consider something some people do believe. Killing female children in china? Segregation? Stoning adulterers? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/42 "2003-09-25T11:42:02Z")
It’s not that I don’t get your point, Shade - I do. But the thing is, you’re presenting examples to which _almost every_ (sane) citizen of the US (let’s stick with that country for now) would say that they’re criminal and wrong (killing female children, female circumcision). Abortion isn’t such an example: it’s pretty much 50/50 with regards to people deeming it murder or no. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/43 "2003-09-25T11:58:55Z")
It’s the nearest analogy I can come up with - I can’t think of any other issue of morality split like that, or at least, one which I’m on the other side of. Can you suggest anything better? Perhaps I should forget the anaology. “My natural reaction is to be to be horrified. But then I realised that expecting someone to ignore murders is quite shocking too. He fact that they’re not murders to me doesn’t negate the fact that they’re murders to someone else in this point, except insofar as I might be able to persduade them to accept my point of view.” Never mind, it’s a point that can be made about a lot of things, maybe I shouldn’t have brought it up here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/44 "2003-09-25T14:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Um, **Cerri**? Can you give us a reason as to why we should be paying for healthcare in Africa to begin with, considering tens of millions of Americans don’t have health insurance here? > > It’s not our fucking problem, frankly. I’m sorry Africa is a shitty place to live but why should we bend over backwards to make sure people in Africa get healthcare when we can’t even provide it for our OWN citizens? \*\* Is that what Jesus would say? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/45 "2003-09-25T14:14:23Z")
It isn’t about funding abortions, it’s about refusing to fund clinics who even _advocate_ for abortion. It’s about squelching free speech. It’s about Bush deciding unilaterally that he has the right to impose his own personal and hypocritical morality on other countries. It’s about letting children suffer without health care because the clinic they go to won’t agree to a fascistic muzzling of free expression. I don’t particularly like my money being spent to slaughter people in Iraq for no reason but conservatives don’t seem to have a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/46 "2003-09-25T14:20:23Z")
Well, at least this is a step in the right direction. Our government should never have started spending taxpayer money on this kind of crap to begin with. Now, if we can just get them to stop invading other countries. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/47 "2003-09-25T14:23:28Z")
Would anybody have a problem if the U.S. decided to not send money to a health clinic that also performed significant numbers of clitoral circumcisions? If politicians wished to not have money go to such a clinic…would they be “imposing” their own morality? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/48 "2003-09-25T14:35:18Z")
Clitoral circumcision is not analogous to abortion but Bush is cutting off funds to clinics that _don’t_ perform abortion. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/49 "2003-09-25T14:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Clitoral circumcision is not analogous to abortion but Bush is cutting off funds to clinics that _don’t_ perform abortion. \*\* Well of course that’s not my point. I wasn’t comparing abortions and clitoral circumcisions. My question was whether witholding U.S. funds for a clinic that performed clitoral circumcision (among other “acceptable” medical services) was an **imposition** of values? ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/50 "2003-09-25T14:48:29Z")
If said circumcisions were performed on adults who freely gave informed consent, as abortions generally are, then I would indeed have a problem with it. Unfortunately, I seem to recall reading that these circumcisions are often performed on unwilling children who are held down shrieking while it happens. That, to my mind, constitutes torture, and I have no problem with denying aid to torturers. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/51 "2003-09-25T14:57:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrazyCatLady \* > \*\* That, to my mind, constitutes torture, and I have no problem with denying aid to torturers. \*\* So in some cases, I guess it \is\ okay to impose our viewpoint on other countries by witholding aid. Which, of course, was my point. 😉 My only point here is to rebut the notion that we shouldn’t be “imposing” our value system on others. “We” do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/52 "2003-09-25T14:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Well of course that’s not my point. > > I wasn’t comparing abortions and clitoral circumcisions. > > My question was whether witholding U.S. funds for a clinic that performed clitoral circumcision (among other “acceptable” medical services) was an **imposition** of values? \*\* Yes. It’s an imposition of values…and it would be inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/53 "2003-09-25T15:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Yes. It’s an imposition of values…and it would be inappropriate. \*\* DtC…meet CrazyCatLady. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/54 "2003-09-25T15:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > My only point here is to rebut the notion that we shouldn’t be “imposing” our value system on others. > > “We” do it all the time. Ah, but we’re not talking about “our” value system, we’re talking about _GWB’s_\* value system. _Our_ values as a country are that abortion should be legal, safe and available. Bush is imposing a morality that is _counter_ to that of his own country. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/55 "2003-09-25T15:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I don’t particularly like my money being spent to slaughter people in Iraq for no reason but conservatives don’t seem to have a problem with that. \*\* Me neither. It’s amazing to me that the people who aren’t bothered by this are probably the same ones rallying behind Bush’s 87 million dollar fiasco. It’s ok to go in where we aren’t wanted and fuck things up, but it’s not ok to spend money where we’re genuinely needed.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/56 "2003-09-25T15:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Indygrrl \* > \*\*Me neither. It’s amazing to me that the people who aren’t bothered by this are probably the same ones rallying behind Bush’s 87 million dollar fiasco. It’s ok to go in where we aren’t wanted and fuck things up, but it’s not ok to spend money where we’re genuinely needed.:rolleyes: \*\* [nitpick] 87 **billion**. With a ‘b’. [/nitpick] I’m not really sure if a factor of a thousand counts as a nitpick anymore, really. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/57 "2003-09-25T15:57:12Z")
I got me an analogy for you. Bush is pro death penalty, right? How about he stopped funding aid progammes to countries which were anti-death penalty, unless they started executing criminals. Even though not all states in the US have the death penalty, and only 50% of his citizens believe in it. How would that sit? As long as the clinics are acting within the law of both the USA and their home country, I don’t see how they can withdraw funding. It’s ok for any American woman to receive counselling about her options, but not for any African woman? Realistically, you’re probably talking about a woman who is HIV positive or with AIDs, who already has 4 or 5 children, some of whom might also have HIV or AIDs, some of whom might have died of starvation, common childhood diseases, malaria or diarrhoea. And that would be because the immunisation programmes aren’t fully developed, there is not enough money for food, anti malarials or retrovirals and there may not be access to clean water. So there’s no abortion, but without healthcare provided by those clinics, how long do you think the child will stay healthy? Or alive? A lot of those problems could be solved if we cancelled third world debts. We give them only a fraction of what they give us. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/58 "2003-09-25T16:46:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*Lots of other countries FUCKING CAN, and they DON’T. It’s their turn to pass the plate for once. \*\* Another American displaying ignorance about American levels of aid, or about the contributions of other countries, or both. As **jjimm** has already pointed out, US spending in this category is well below the average for developed nation, in proportion to the size of the economy. [Foreign Policy](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13656&PHPSESSID=713cbc2d9b6213b7ed0596d417071ce7#) magazine recently released a study, conducted in conjunction with the Center for Global Development, that ranked 21 wealthy nations on a “Commitment to Development Index”. This CDI rated the countries on > [@](#): > > whether their aid, trade, migration, investment, peacekeeping, and environmental policies help or hurt poor nations. Despite its constant claims to responsible world citizenship and its professed concern for the welfare of poorer nations, the United States finished in second-last place, with only Japan scoring lower. The report’s summary about the US says: > [@](#): > > Like Japan, an economic titan with little measured commitment to development. Tops on trade, but last on aid and environment, and surprisingly low on migration. While the US does contribute a lot of aid money, in absolute terms, it is well below most other wealthy countries in terms of aid as a percentage of GDP. Not only that, but a very high percentage of US aid is “tied” aid. For those not familiar with the term, i offer the report’s explanation. Tied aid is: > [@](#): > > financial assistance that recipient countries are required to spend on services from the donor nation. (For example, the Canadian or Italian governments may grant loans to a poor nation for highway construction but then require the recipient nation to hire a Canadian or Italian contractor to build the roads, thus preventing the aid recipient from getting the best deal.) In 2001 alone, roughly two fifths of total international aid flows were tied; in the late 1990s, the U.S. Agency for International Development reassured the U.S. Congress that almost 80 percent of the agency’s resources went to purchase U.S. goods and services. So, much of this so-called aid is actually a method of distributing US taxpayer dollars to large US corporations, rather than to poor people in the third world. This is not especially surprising–it’s exactly how the military-industrial system works inside the US as well–but let’s call this “aid” what it is: a subsidy to US corporations. In contrast, among the leaders on the CDI aid list, only a small percentage of the aid is tied. The report does note another way that the US provides aid. > [@](#): > > Of course, the United States provides significant private financial contributions to developing countries via churches, foundations, corporations, and private voluntary organizations. Since domestic contributions to such private groups are often tax-exempt, these flows, which would roughly double total U.S. aid, arguably could be credited to U.S. policies. Of course, plenty of other countries also have charities and foundations that provide aid. And, even if no other country had any such charity organizations, and if every cent of America’s non-governmental aid was included in its score, the US would still only rank 14th out of 21 on the aid scoresheet. Admittedly, the survey also states: > [@](#): > > The aid scores are based on 2001 data and do not reflect two recent U.S. initiatives: the Millennium Challenge Account and the Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief But even if such things were included, the US would still be at or near the bottom of the aid list. The only category on the CDI in which the US ranks near the top is in trade, where it is first. Even then, > [@](#): > > agribusiness and other rural interests, though they are no longer competitive abroad, remain politically powerful, and the government has been unable to reconcile domestic politics with its otherwise enlightened approach to the developing world. Each and every cow in the United States, for example, draws an annual subsidy of over $150 to cattle producers, which is about one third of the average annual GDP per capita in sub-Saharan Africa. This is not as bad as Switzerland, where the cows could almost put themselves through college on the $1560 they are subsidised each year. For people who want to see the whole list of CDI rankings, you can find it [here](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_mayjun_2003/cgd.php?list=1). The countries are in order of ranking from best to worst (smaller number=better rank), and the numbers for each category are scores out of ten (larger number=better score). As an Australian national, i was particularly chagrined to see how fucking awful my own country’s contribution is. But then, i wasn’t really very surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/59 "2003-09-25T16:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*So in some cases, I guess it \is\ okay to impose our viewpoint on other countries by witholding aid. > > Which, of course, was my point. 😉 > My only point here is to rebut the notion that we shouldn’t be “imposing” our value system on others. > > “We” do it all the time. \*\* Doesn’t it seem a tad bit disingenius that in our own country, abortion is freely available, but we’re trying to force other countries to outlaw it? Is “our” value system schizophrenic? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680/60 "2003-09-25T17:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > disingenius disingenuous [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-abortion-policy-closes-african-clinics/203680.md?page=4)