# U.S. Army vs National Guard **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 21, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563 "2024-11-21T16:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/1 "2024-11-21T16:09:09Z")
This occurred to me while I was awake in the wee hours. Suppose Trump follows through with his intention to send military troops into major cities to round up aliens, and a state governor takes exception to this and calls out the NG to defend his cities (as is his right). I’m guessing this would be an unwanted and potentially tragic confrontation. As a retired military guy, I don’t believe that I could have ever taken up arms against another uniformed American, and would have refused the order to do so. I suspect that a lot of others would have the same reaction. But the possibility of such an encounter is a very real scenario in my opinion, given our impending DOTUS. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/2 "2024-11-21T16:17:55Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’m guessing this would be an unwanted and potentially tragic confrontation. A president can (and would) federalize the national guard, the same as was done during the civil rights period. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/3 "2024-11-21T16:27:31Z")
I don’t believe it would be a lawful order. I thought we still had a firewall in place against using the US Army domestically? But if he succeeded in getting the other branches of Government to allow this, I still wonder if the Generals would go along with this. No way would I take up arms, but I managed to get through the Navy without firing a gun. So, probably the wrong person to ask. * * * * * * More on the legality: > **[Can The President Really Order Troops Into US Cities?](https://today.tamu.edu/2020/06/05/can-the-president-really-order-troops-into-us-cities/)** > > Texas A&M experts explain the Insurrection Act of 1807 and the powers it gives a president to deploy the military on domestic soil. Overall, it would be an illegal order to send military troops into major cities to round up aliens. He would have to couch it as putting down an insurrection basically. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/4 "2024-11-21T16:37:56Z")
And when the comnander of those troops got there and found no insurrection they’d be dury bou d to report that and sit on their hands until withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/5 "2024-11-21T17:40:27Z")
Being duty-bound and being willing to disobey the CinC can be a real dilemma. Trump has sworn to court martial officers that don’t do what he tells them to. Even if acquitted, that action is still part of your record and good luck on future promotions. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/6 "2024-11-21T17:44:03Z")
They swear an oath to protect the Constitution as I recall. That has to take priority over a would be fascist President. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/7 "2024-11-21T17:56:42Z")
Indeed, but as Voltaire said, “It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.” A principled stand with the Constitution will be costly, if it comes to that. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/8 "2024-11-21T17:58:10Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > They swear an oath to protect the Constitution as I recall. That has to take priority over a would be fascist President. The Insurrection Act is law. If Trump declares an insurrection, then he can use the military to quell it. It’s no small matter to refuse an executive order. We were always told that we had a duty to refuse to follow an unlawful order, but there was always a very large BUT attached to that, as in “BUT you’d better be sure that you’re right before you decide to do that.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/9 "2024-11-21T18:07:53Z")
I don’t think you’d have to look very hard to find military personnel willing to do whatever Trump wants them to do. I think polls even suggest a commanding majority of them would. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/10 "2024-11-21T19:12:52Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > We were always told that we had a duty to refuse to follow an unlawful order, but there was always a very large BUT attached to that, as in “BUT you’d better be sure that you’re right before you decide to do that.” This. That statement was made with a large dollop of context that unlawful orders would the 0.000001% exception to the general rule of receiving only lawful orders. In a world where there’s a continuous stream of unlawful orders flowing down from above, a very different reality will take hold real quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/11 "2024-11-21T19:22:03Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The Insurrection Act is law. If Trump declares an insurrection, then he can use the military to quell it. Yes. It’s true, it would be a huge reach to declare that any arbitrary number of undocumented people constitute an insurrection. It would be considerably less of a reach to argue that the American officials harboring said people are defying federal law and thus are in rebellion against the government, and to justify lawful action against an insurrection on those grounds. This is not an insurmountable legal problem, is what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/12 "2024-11-21T19:26:34Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This is not an insurmountable legal problem, is what I’m saying. Oh, I know. I’m betting it would trigger another impeachment action. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/13 "2024-11-21T19:29:16Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > I don’t think you’d have to look very hard to find military personnel willing to do whatever Trump wants them to do. I think polls even suggest a commanding majority of them would. Quite possible. The thread has drifted a bit, which I don’t mind. My hypothetical is “would the Army actually open fire on American citizens (or other military personnel) if there was resistance?” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/14 "2024-11-21T19:52:59Z")
They already did in 1970, and the students weren’t even armed. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/15 "2024-11-21T21:32:47Z")
Yeah, I remember that shameful event. It’s what happens when you send in people who have weapons training without the necessary discipline. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/16 "2024-11-21T21:49:50Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > A president can (and would) federalize the national guard Yep, the NG is now part of the US Military. Mostly. Kinda. A few states have their own Militia. > [@Zoobi](#): > > I don’t think you’d have to look very hard to find military personnel willing to do whatever Trump wants them to do. You’d have to get a LOT of them, all in one unit. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/17 "2024-11-21T23:34:26Z")
About 1/3rd of the civilian populace seems to buy the Faux version of reality. If a similar proportion obtains in the DoD’s officer corps, we’re gonna have a problem. See also my comment here: > [@Surprises coming for voters for the Leopards-Eating-Faces Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprises-coming-for-voters-for-the-leopards-eating-faces-party/1010166/95): > > I am glad I am not a senior US military officer now. This is going to be a very severe test and it will only take a few percent of officers turning trumpist to turn DoD inside out. DoD has no institutional history of significant dissention among its members and will be largely lost trying to figure out what to do with disloyal members and units. Remember that most of the MAGA line for the last 8+ years has been that the Dems are unconstitutionally destroying the USA with their federal overrea… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/18 "2024-11-21T23:47:38Z")
8 years ago I’d have said absolutely not. The US military is an extremely strong institution, where their role in society and civics are taken very seriously. Officers are extensively taught about the role of the military versus civilian leadership, how militaries in other parts of the world are corrupt and unduly influence or directly rule their country, etc. There are also a lot of emphasis on what orders are legal and illegal and the duty to the law and to refuse legal orders. I would say that the US military is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, militaries in the world when it comes to sticking to their role in civil society. However, Trump got a crack at appointing a lot of officers and has stacked them with cronies over the years. A lot of that institutional integrity has been weakened. I think we’re still at a point where our military would refuse to fire on national guard units or civilians, but who knows where we’ll be in a few months or years with civil unrest and further radicalization of his cult? It would depend a lot on the circumstances, but I could see schisms that would lead to military vs military violence and potentially overt civil war. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/19 "2024-11-22T00:07:19Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > They swear an oath to protect the Constitution as I recall. So did the President. You want to stand on _that_ oath? I fully expect initial deployments will be on the basis of “national security” to defend the nation from “invasion” and “infiltration” by “hostile” foreign “aliens.” > [@SenorBeef](#): > > However, Trump got a crack at appointing a lot of officers and has stacked them with cronies over the years. In actual practice, President has basically no involvement in the appointment or promotion of military officers, except possible members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Combatant Commanders (and those appointments typically only last 3 or 4 years, meaning that everyone he might have personally had a hand in appointing to a position would have moved on by now, and in most cases probably retired). Although I wouldn’t be shocked if that norm also went out the window and he started personally vetting (or assigning a roadie to vet) graduates of the various commissioning programs according to some sort of Project 2025 rubric in the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/20 "2024-11-22T00:20:07Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Overall, it would be an illegal order to send military troops into major cities to round up aliens. He would have to couch it as putting down an insurrection basically. Yeah, well, the road to Republican hell is paved with “basically”. Their official position on immigration is that it’s “basically an invasion”. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > And when the commander of those troops got there and found no insurrection they’d be dury boud to report that and sit on their hands until withdrawn. On paper. In reality they’re a bunch of pliable middle managers who fought for their rank and benefits, and aren’t gonna rock the boat to jeopardize that. The lower the rank the more easily they’re pushed and replaced; the higher the rank the more they have to lose. Officers who refuse unlawful orders _might_ be praised by _some_ of the public. But more likely they’ll just be hounded and possibly lynched by MAGAs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563.md?page=2)