# U.S. Army vs National Guard **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 21, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563 "2024-11-21T16:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/21 "2024-11-22T00:22:55Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’m betting it would trigger another impeachment action. As long as Republicans are in charge of the House, the possibility of this is indistinguishable from zero. I’m worried about the portion of the military that Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense candidate with white supremacist tattoos, represents. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/22 "2024-11-22T00:41:54Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Officers who refuse unlawful orders _might_ be praised by _some_ of the public. But more likely they’ll just be hounded and possibly lynched by MAGAs. I’m reminded of the Vindman brothers. Not literally lynched, but their military careers didn’t last long after daring to expose Trump’s impeachable offense. > **[Alexander Vindman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vindman)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > > Alexander Semyon Vindman (born Aleksandr Semyonovich Vindman,\[a\] June 6, 1975) is a retired United States Army lieutenant colonel who was the Director for European Affairs for the United States National Security Council (NSC) until he was reassigned on February 7, 2020. Vindman is currently director for a think tank, the Institute for Informed American Leadership (IIAL). Vindman came to national attention in October 2019 when he testified before the Un... > **[Eugene Vindman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Vindman)** > > Eugene Semyon Vindman (born Yevgeny Semyonovich Vindman;\[a\] June 6, 1975) is an American politician, attorney, and retired U.S. Army officer. He was a deputy legal advisor for the United States National Security Council (NSC) until he was reassigned on February 7, 2020. > Vindman came to national attention in October 2019 when his twin brother, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, testified before the United States Congress regarding the Trump–Ukraine scandal. Eugene received the report of Pres... (Although the latter was just elected to Congress—which isn’t exactly inconsistent with being praised by _some_ of the public _and_ hounded by MAGAs) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/23 "2024-11-22T13:16:31Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > As long as Republicans are in charge of the House, the possibility of this is indistinguishable from zero. Well, it won’t stop them from trying again. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/24 "2024-11-22T15:54:30Z")
Send in the military and they will do what exactly? What is most likely is the military will be used for logistical support. They aren’t law enforcement and have no assets or knowledge to help in that area. ICE and Border Patrol are undermanned and unable to handle the current workload. ICE would be in charge. The military would be used at most as extra bodies and transport. And as other stated the National Guard’s federal mission trumps (pun intended) its state mission. The president can federalize them and bring them under federal control after some conditions are met. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/25 "2024-11-22T16:23:13Z")
I’m not a mind reader, but I got the distinct impression from Trump’s mental diarrhea that he planned on setting up detention camps for mass deportation efforts and on using the U.S. military to do the rounding up and transporting of illegals to said camps, and then keeping them under guard while awaiting transport out of the country. Cities and states resisted that effort the last time around when ICE was created for the purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/26 "2024-11-22T16:26:46Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > My hypothetical is “would the Army actually open fire on American citizens (or other military personnel) if there was resistance?” Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by “Open Fire”. Many would be reluctant to _deliberately_ fire on other military personnel, but in a case where you have two opposing forces maneuvering to gain advantage, there’s always the possibility of someone making a mistake. One guy thinks he’s under attack, or just has a negligent discharge, and suddenly everyone is thinking “We’re under attack!”, and respond accordingly. And once some people have died on each side, both sides will think they’re in the right, and the fight continues. “We can’t let them have died in vain! We must win this fight to Save America!” And both sides will be saying that. In later years they might realize it was a huge mistake, but in the middle of a shooting war, most people don’t take time to stop and reflect. > [@Loach](#): > > The president can federalize them and bring them under federal control after some conditions are met. But again, this comes down to the central question: Will they accept that order? Ultimately, every soldier out there will have to decide where their true allegiance lies, and then decide how to act accordingly. And I’m sure those decisions will cover the whole range of possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/27 "2024-11-22T16:36:02Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I’m not a mind reader, but I got the distinct impression from Trump’s mental diarrhea that he planned on setting up detention camps for mass deportation efforts and on using the U.S. military to do the rounding up and transporting of illegals to said camps, and then keeping them under guard while awaiting transport out of the country. Cities and states resisted that effort the last time around when ICE was created for the purpose. Sure that sounds doable in the abstract but in practical terms it makes no sense. How will the military “round up” anyone? It takes federal law enforcement to determine who is going. Guarding facilities and transportation are certainly things the military can do. So far what has been proposed are things that the federal government has been doing all along but Trump is pretending it’s not. They have continued to deport people who entered the country illegally. They continue to deport legal immigrants who commit crimes in the US. If Trump hadn’t killed the bill to fund an expansion these things would be running smoother. What is being proposed is doing it at an accelerated rate. It will certainly be done poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/28 "2024-11-22T16:40:28Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > The president can federalize them and bring them under federal control after some conditions are met. > > But again, this comes down to the central question: Will they accept that order? Ultimately, every soldier out there will have to decide where their true allegiance lies, and then decide how to act accordingly. And I’m sure those decisions will cover the whole range of possibilities. Being federalized isn’t an unlawful order. Once you are under federal orders if you refuse you can be charged with Failure to Repair under UCMJ and face court martial and possible jail time. It will be damn near 100% compliance. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/29 "2024-11-22T16:47:44Z")
Sure, that’s how it works under normal circumstances. This will not be normal. In the context of “My State governor and legislature deployed us to prevent mass incarceration of immigrants, and prevent mass deportation, and now the president is nationalizing us to stop that, and threatening to send in the Regular Army to break things and kill people”, it’s a different thing entirely. Sure, such an order may be “lawful”, but will it be followed? And will they ever be subject to those courts martial? Well, _not if they win_. This won’t be an easy question to answer, and like I said, I expect they’ll be all over the place. Some will comply, some will resist (even knowing the potential consequences), and some will probably desert and try to run to Canada or Mexico, like in the old Vietnam War days. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/30 "2024-11-22T17:19:41Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Sure, that’s how it works under normal circumstances. This will not be normal. > > In the context of “My State governor and legislature deployed us to prevent mass incarceration of immigrants, and prevent mass deportation, and now the president is nationalizing us to stop that, and threatening to send in the Regular Army to break things and kill people”, it’s a different thing entirely. > > Sure, such an order may be “lawful”, but will it be followed? And will they ever be subject to those courts martial? Well, _not if they win_. > > This won’t be an easy question to answer, and like I said, I expect they’ll be all over the place. Some will comply, some will resist (even knowing the potential consequences), and some will probably desert and try to run to Canada or Mexico, like in the old Vietnam War days. Win what? The civil war? Sure if you think the Army is going to be used to murder and destroy cities all bets are off. Yes I’m aware some here really do believe that’s what will happen. What is really going to happen is they will be used in the way the National Guard has been used for many years along the border only greatly expanded. There were soldiers that didn’t want to be activated for GWOT. Some fled the country. Some faced legal consequences. In the end the numbers were negligible and it was close enough to 100% compliance. You are also greatly underestimating the support of Trump and conservatives in general in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2024, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/31 "2024-11-23T05:20:50Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Sure that sounds doable in the abstract but in practical terms it makes no sense. How will the military “round up” anyone? It takes federal law enforcement to determine who is going. No it doesn’t. This is race war, all the military, Guard or police have to do is look at somebody’s skin tone to know if they are a target or not. The military could just force anyone too brown into trucks or whatever, drive them to wherever they are to be dumped off at (no need to bother with food or water, it saves of logistics), and drop them or their bodies off there. No need to check with the law, all they need to do is look at someone to know they are an “illegal” and need to be eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2024, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/32 "2024-11-23T15:32:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > Sure that sounds doable in the abstract but in practical terms it makes no sense. How will the military “round up” anyone? It takes federal law enforcement to determine who is going. > > No it doesn’t. This is race war, all the military, Guard or police have to do is look at somebody’s skin tone to know if they are a target or not. The military could just force anyone too brown into trucks or whatever, drive them to wherever they are to be dumped off at (no need to bother with food or water, it saves of logistics), and drop them or their bodies off there. No need to check with the law, all they need to do is look at someone to know they are an “illegal” and need to be eliminated. Yes I knew you would say that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/33 "2024-11-23T22:00:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Guard or police have to do is look at somebody’s skin tone to know if they are a target or not You do know that overall, the US Military is way more minority than the US Population? Like there are twice as many Blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/34 "2024-11-24T00:45:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You do know that overall, the US Military is way more minority than the US Population? Like there are twice as many Blacks? Expect the non-whites to be purged. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/35 "2024-11-24T01:04:25Z")
Seems to me like a 45% RIF isn’t the way you want to start a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/36 "2024-11-24T01:05:15Z")
That’s hardly necessary. You don’t need to purge non-white people from the military to turn it into a tool of white supremacy anymore than you need to purge the police force of working class individuals to make it a tool of capitalism. Or, again, [to purge the police force] of non-whites to make it a tool of white supremacy. Heck, the Republican Party is doing a pretty good job of gaslighting Hispanic communities into insisting they totally mean them too when they talk about white people. A Hispanic white supremacist even shot up a mall not far from my home town a couple years back! > **[2023 Allen, Texas mall shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Allen,_Texas_mall_shooting)** > > On May 6, 2023, a mass shooting occurred at Allen Premium Outlets, an outlet center in Allen, Texas, United States. Nine people, including the perpetrator, were killed during the shooting, the youngest of whom was a three-year-old boy, and seven others were injured. The perpetrator was fatally shot by a police officer already in the area on an unrelated call. > The shooter, 33-year-old Mauricio Martinez Garcia, was a far-right extremist, although his specific motive for the spree killings was ... ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/37 "2024-11-24T01:29:53Z")
Although not a strict one-to-one analogy, in 1957, Arkansas governor Faubus called out the Arkansas National Guard to prevent desegregation of the high school in Little Rock. In response, President Eisenhower simultaneously federalized the Arkansas National Guard putting it under federal control and called in the U.S. Army 101st Airborne Division. This suggests that the feds would have the upper hand in a scenario like that envisioned by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563/38 "2024-11-24T01:53:14Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Suppose Trump follows through with his intention to send military troops into major cities to round up aliens …he wouldn’t need to send the military troops in IMHO. The cops would do it. Constitutional issues be damned. There wouldn’t even need to be a direct order. The police would just start “randomly” rounding up communities of undocumented en masse, telling ICE “hey, not sure about these guys, come check them out”, and next thing we’ve got truckloads of people going to detention camps and the borders. This bypasses the state governor because it’s just “cops being cops.” So, no calling out of the National Guard. No Army even getting involved. By the time the lawyers make any headway, the pipeline has already been established. Trump has the department of Homeland Security, ICE, Department of Prisons, he’s got many levers of government to call on, and he has in the past. But it will be the cops that rally behind him and IMHO. They will operate independently as his front line. They are already everywhere. And are Trump’s biggest [cheerleaders](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/14/nx-s1-5183142/police-welcome-trumps-return-to-the-white-house). They are already have the budgets of a small country’s standing army. Some even have intelligence units. They’ve got drones and armoured cars and are armed to the teeth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-army-vs-national-guard/1010563.md?page=1)