# U.S. Bridge Federation slams its victorious team for "WE DID NOT VOTE FOR BUSH" sign **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566 "2007-11-15T18:51:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/101 "2007-11-16T16:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] By that token, then no participant should say or do anything that is not sport specific until that person is well clear of the venue. No amateur football player or baseball player should ever say “I’d like to thank God for giving us the strength to win” for that would put the organization in a position of looking as though it endorses Christianity. No Olympian on the podium should ever wave a flag (we ran into a problem with that in Canada, when a winner from Quebec wrapped herself in the Quebec flag rather than a Canadian flag at an international competition), for that would would put the organization in a position of looking as though it endorses a certain state. No British Columbian snowboarder should ever hang out with dopers in his personal life, for that would put the organization in a position of looking as though it endorses pot (are there any BC boarders that don’t have friends that toke?). A female beach volleyball player must never play in modest attire, for that would put the organization in a position of looking like it endorses feminism (yes, that has been an issue too). A skier must march in a parade of nations, for to not do so would put the organization in a position of looking like it does not endorse its own sport (ne shitteth vous pas). [/QUOTE] In response to your examples, I would say that, with one exception, organizations have a right to control all of these situations. Whatever happens in a venue where the athlete is representing an organization could be considered a reflection on that organization. Members should be made aware of what the organization won’t tolerate, and act accordingly if they want to remain a member. > [@](#): > > It is a question of whether or not the sport organizing body should or should not enforce its standards of morality. Whether one comes at the question fro the perspective of a sport organizing body trying to present a good image to the public by not permitting any morally offensive lapses surrounding its competitions, or one comes at the question from the old British boys school perspective of sport and morality being inextricably intertwined, the fact remains that sport organizing bodies limit what athletes can say or do based on what the sport organizing bodies find to be offensive. Again, with one exception, I don’t see morality as being at issue here. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is that the sport is composed of athletes, who come together through sport organizing bodies to arrange for competitions. In my opinion, the sport should be driven by the athletes, not by the the sport organizing bodies. If certain conduct would affect the outcome of a competition, then the sport organizing body would be well within its rights to make rules against it, but if that conduct would not affect the outcome of a competition, then in my opinion the sport organizing body should not reach outside of the sport to make rules against it. The thing is, I don’t necessarily agree with the decisions this Bridge federation made. In fact, I tend to agree more towards your way of thinking. However, I’m not talking about what my personal preferences are, I’m talking about what the organization has a right to expect. > [@](#): > > Or to put it another way, precisely how and to what degree did holding up a sign harm affect the outcome of the tournament or any future tournament, or the sport of bridge in general, or the USBF in particular? The fact is that it did not harm any of the above, and if there was any effect, I expect that it was simply to draw attention to a sport that many folks would not otherwise have heard of, and thereby ever so marginally result in increased participation rather than decreased participation. It is simply that some people in the sport organizing body, not the players themselves, took great offence because the sign was contary to their personal morality (treason? come on), and these persons used the rules of the sport to extend outside of the sport to sanction the players. I have no idea how they were harmed, but it’s not my call to make. > [@](#): > > Win a Nobel Prize? Stand up and say whatever you want, for you have earned the right to your fifteen minutes of fame, and your right to try to change the world. Win a Governor’s General Award? Stand up and say whatever you want, for you have earned your right to your fifteen minutes of fame, and your right to try to change the world. Win an Academy Award? Stand up and say whatever you want, for you have earned your right to your fifteen minutes of fame, and your right to try to change the world. Win an international sporting event? Stand up, but keep your mouth shut, for it is the sport organizing body that has earned its fifteen minutes of fame, not you, for from the sport organizing body’s position, you are simply a fungable unit to be used to promote the sport organizing body by reflecting the morals of the sport organizing body’s directors, and woe betide you if you act contrary to that morality. > > (BTW, I have sat on a national sport organizing body, and I have competed internationally on a national team, so I have experienced both sides of the equation.) It wouldn’t bother me if any of those other organizations banned political speech from their pulpits. See, you are an athlete, and you resent the culture of athletics from this standpoint. I can understand that. But it IS part of the culture, and whether or not you like it, the organizations have the right to enforce these kinds of rules. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/102 "2007-11-16T16:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=denquixote] Are we speaking the same language here? What gloves? Am I going to challenge you to a duel? Why? You like poker. You think bridge players are idiots. I never expressed an opinion about either, I was just trying to discern what you meant. [/QUOTE] It might have been easier for you to figure out if he had expressed his analogy correctly. He said: bridge : poker :: bull : steer Not the point he was trying to make, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/103 "2007-11-16T16:50:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My wife and I have had these discussions many times: she was a lawyer in a civil law jurisdiction before we married. I have contended that what makes the common-law approach desirable is precisely what’s at issue here: the need for predictable results. In basic fairness, people need to know what acts are prohibited. A civil-law approach could result in an “judge” for the organization saying, in effect, “This act was unbecoming a member,” without regard to any previous precedent. Then - the oral sex! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/104 "2007-11-16T17:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It might have been easier for you to figure out if he had expressed his analogy correctly. He said: bridge : poker :: bull : steer Not the point he was trying to make, I don’t think. [/QUOTE] Quite right, wrote it bass ackwards, like the dyslexic suicide who threw himself behind a bus. I shall go to the river, to perform the Ancient Tasmanian Ritual of Abasement, accompanied by a chorus of bitter virgins, intoning dirges of woe and humiliation. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/105 "2007-11-16T17:49:31Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Quite right, wrote it bass ackwards, like the dyslexic suicide who threw himself behind a bus. [/QUOTE] Shouldn’t that be behind a sub? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/106 "2007-11-16T19:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Then - the oral sex! Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I don’t intend to pick on **Bricker** , but this was hysterical. Thanks, **Shodan**. Still laughing… ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/107 "2007-11-16T20:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Quite right, wrote it bass ackwards, like the dyslexic suicide who threw himself behind a bus. I shall go to the river, to perform the Ancient Tasmanian Ritual of Abasement, accompanied by a chorus of bitter virgins, intoning dirges of woe and humiliation. [/QUOTE] Oh, well, you know I live to see you squirm. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/108 "2007-11-16T21:12:37Z")
God, yes! But don’t let the hubby find out! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/109 "2007-11-16T21:25:05Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] God, yes! But don’t let the hubby find out! [/QUOTE] Oh, he knows all about us. He thinks it’s funy the way I like to go on this board and argue with liberals, because at home, I’M the bleeding heart. He knows a girl needs a little variety in her life. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/110 "2007-11-16T22:28:29Z")
I suppose that private organizations can have whatever rules they want to kick out members - saying you can’t wear a hat when representing us in public, can’t have a moustache, can’t promote legalization of marijuana, can’t (_gasp_) criticize our president, etc. I understand that. But this is another example of what I’ve noticed since living here - people in the USA always say they support (in principle) freedom of speech, but there are all kinds of pressure in day-to-day society to discourage people from voicing criticism of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/111 "2007-11-16T23:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I suppose that private organizations can have whatever rules they want to kick out members - saying you can’t wear a hat when representing us in public, can’t have a moustache, can’t promote legalization of marijuana, can’t (_gasp_) criticize our president, etc. I understand that. [/QUOTE] I think the only point is that they didn’t want them to express those opinions _while representing the organization_. Off hours you can say whatever you want. I don’t think it’s a big burden, myself. When I’m on a business trip I refrain from talking about religion and politics with clients. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/112 "2007-11-17T00:43:25Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] I think the only point is that they didn’t want them to express those opinions _while representing the organization_. [/QUOTE] Yes, I understand it, which is why I included those very same words in the sentence that you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/113 "2007-11-17T01:02:30Z")
The idea that bridge is a sport, like track and field is a sport, and that it is governed by senile old farts like Avery Brundige could not be farther from the truth. The governing body is composed almost solely of bridge players. That is it could just as easily have been Gail Greenberg making the ruling as it was Gail Greenberg making the sign. The bridge world is totally incestuous. The President of the U.S. Bridge Federation, Jan Martel, (who I think is a former world champion) is married to a world champion bridge player, Chip Martel, both of whom were in Shanghai as coach and captain of one of the men’s teams participating. Joanna Stansby, one of the team members, is maried to Lew Stansby who was also there as a participant and Lew Stansby and Chip Martel used to be partners (IIRC.) The way it seems to a casual observer is that most really prominent players eventually gravitate to leadership roles within the various organizations and at the same time become captains or coaches of their friends’ teams so they can continue to go to these events on someone else’s dime. The intermingling of teams, coaches, captains, and leaders makes it improbable in the extreme that the sign was posted without any previous discussion or thougtful debate. It’s kind of like a Supreme Court nominee never having considered Roe v. Wade. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/114 "2007-11-17T01:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I suppose that private organizations can have whatever rules they want to kick out members - saying you can’t wear a hat when representing us in public, can’t have a moustache, can’t promote legalization of marijuana, can’t (_gasp_) criticize our president, etc. I understand that. But this is another example of what I’ve noticed since living here - people in the USA always say they support (in principle) freedom of speech, but there are all kinds of pressure in day-to-day society to discourage people from voicing criticism of the USA. [/QUOTE] Of course, it’s true that America, like all cultures, does have its social pressures. But when Americans talk about “freedom of speech,” it means something very specific, which is that the _government_ can’t stop you from expressing yourself, or jail or kill you for doing so. It has nothing whatsoever to do with citizens giving each other platforms from which to express themselves. It wouldn’t be considered the least bit contradictory to strongly support the Constitutional “freedom of speech,” while also at the same time using that freedom, as well as the freedom of association that we also have, to provide platforms for one’s preferred speech at the expense of someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/115 "2007-11-17T01:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It wouldn’t be considered the least bit contradictory to strongly support the Constitutional “freedom of speech,” while also at the same time using that freedom, as well as the freedom of association that we also have, to provide platforms for one’s preferred speech at the expense of someone else’s. [/QUOTE] Evidently the Bridge Federation spokesman thought it would seem contradictory. Otherwise he wouldn’t have prefaced his remarks with “While I believe in the right to free speech…” You don’t say that unless the thing you’re about to say next will be an argument for limiting speech, and you’re trying to head off criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/116 "2007-11-17T01:44:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Of course, it’s true that America, like all cultures, does have its social pressures. But when Americans talk about “freedom of speech,” it means something very specific, which is that the _government_ can’t stop you from expressing yourself, or jail or kill you for doing so. It has nothing whatsoever to do with citizens giving each other platforms from which to express themselves. [/QUOTE] I understand the whole first amendment thing (or I think I do) and how it only applies to the government not being able to restrict what you say. I just find it ironic that in a country that prides itself so much on the freedom of speech, criticism of the government is socially so much frowned upon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/117 "2007-11-17T01:49:41Z")
Playing a little fast and loose there, aren’t you, **Sarah**? While it is certainly true that the Constituional protections are specific to the government, that doesn’t mean that the boundaries of free speech are \*\*restricted \*\* by that definition, we also enjoy freedom of speech by common law and common assent. Joe Blow cannot stop you from espousing your reactionary opinions, nor can he prevent me from spreading the cool light of sweet reason in response. Expressing your views is more than a privilege, it is a responsibility. Never more so than in interesting times, such as we are currently enduring. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/118 "2007-11-17T02:18:21Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I don’t intend to pick on **Bricker** , but this was hysterical. Thanks, **Shodan**. Still laughing… [/QUOTE] I hope it wasn’t seen as a dig at **Bricker**. I was just a-funnin’ around. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/119 "2007-11-17T03:32:48Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] Evidently the Bridge Federation spokesman thought it would seem contradictory. Otherwise he wouldn’t have prefaced his remarks with “While I believe in the right to free speech…” You don’t say that unless the thing you’re about to say next will be an argument for limiting speech, and you’re trying to head off criticism. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure he thought it would be contradictory. In fact, I think just the opposite…he was demonstrating exactly what I’m saying. That the government can’t stop the women from making their political statement, but that he wasn’t going to give them a platform for it. [QUOTE=elucidator] Playing a little fast and loose there, aren’t you, Sarah? While it is certainly true that the Constituional protections are specific to the government, that doesn’t mean that the boundaries of free speech are restricted by that definition, we also enjoy freedom of speech by common law and common assent. Joe Blow cannot stop you from espousing your reactionary opinions, nor can he prevent me from spreading the cool light of sweet reason in response. [/QUOTE] No, I don’t think I’m playing fast and loose at all. Joe Blow can’t stop me from espousing my opinion, but he doesn’t need to give me a platform for doing it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566/120 "2007-11-17T03:36:03Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I hope it wasn’t seen as a dig at **Bricker**. I was just a-funnin’ around. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I don’t think it will be seen that way, but one can never be too careful in the Pit. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-bridge-federation-slams-its-victorious-team-for-we-did-not-vote-for-bush-sign/426566.md?page=7)