# U.S. citizens: how pessimistic are you about the future of your country? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769 "2013-08-21T01:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/101 "2013-08-24T06:32:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No ideology has proven itself superior because it depends on your values and the competence of the government. However, most countries have liberalized their markets, including the US, and are figuring out how to pare back their welfare states so that they will still be there with an aging population. Reality has no ideology. I think most people will generally agree that providing a strong social safety net while allowing for economic growth and controlling costs (as in social market economies) is the best model. And while many countries have liberalized their economies (some of which such as privatizing industries in Britain were necessary) there have plenty of costs such as reduced services and growing inequality and poverty. > [@](#): > > It’s a different mentality. The military holds people accountable and uses people where they are needed. If the military was run like a civilian government agency, we’d be conquered by Haiti over a weekend. Riiiiggghhhhtttt. > [@](#): > > Sure, there are many private sector Democrats. But just as Democrats dominate among public sector employees and people on welfare, Republicans do best among private sector workers, military and ex-military, and people who pay a lot of taxes. Then why are so many Republican states net-dependents in regards to federal taxes and benefits?:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > It’s not just that people who pay a lot of taxes want to pay less taxes. It’s that in many places, the Republicans do a better job of spending that money. Not at the federal level, to be sure, but if you look at New York City, they’ve been managed very well financially, and city services improved, by keeping Democrats out for the last 20 years. Some complain that Bloomberg and Giuliani only care about New York’s rich, but the rich in new York are paying very high taxes. what is supposedly “for the rich” is that for the last 20 years their money has been spent on services rather than wasted in graft and fraud. If the Republicans ever make that formula work at the national level they’ll be in business. The key word here is “not at the federal level”. There are plenty of Republicans on the local level I’d be willing to vote for and I’d definitely prefer Republicans for mayor over Democrats who are tools of machine politics. Also Bloomberg is an Independent and would never have a chance in the Republican primaries. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/102 "2013-08-24T11:06:42Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > That’s not how it appears from this side of the Atlantic. More like wilful obstructionism where the important thing is not to provide a solution to a problem but simply to stop, at all costs, the other guys from implementing _their_ solution. > > As a [great mind](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Argument_Sketch) once said: “Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.” > [@madmonk28](#): > > Yeah, I really don’t see what passes as discourse in the US as being a sign of civic health. I think it’s pretty clear that we are devolving into two different cultures with two very different ideas of what it means to be an American. There’s no excange of ideas, rather there is a desperate attempt to stop anything the president is for from happening, even things that originated as GOP plans. Yeah, it’s not the usual opinion, but I stick by it. I’ve written on these boards before about the experience of moving from the US immediately after a national election to the UK immediately before one. The difference was stark. The US election was maddening and divisive, but also invigorating and interesting. The UK one barely had a pulse. It was all placid, disinterested acceptance. I’ve traveled and lived abroad more since then, and the impression holds for many other countries. The US political culture seldom gets the results I - or anyone - wants, but I also think there’s something to be said for it. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/103 "2013-08-24T11:16:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Back to the question, I’m pessimistic. The Republican Party has become in essence a terrorist organization, relying on fear and loathing in its lust for perpetual power. I expect any day now they’ll burn their own party headquarters, blame it on the Democrats, and start rounding people up. “Terrorist organization” is a strong term, but I’ll believe you mean what you say. So if it’s not too much of a hijack, I’m really curious: what solution would you advocate? The ordered disbanding and outlawing of the Republican Party? The arrest, trial, and imprisonment of its leaders? The use of physical force if there is resistance? Those are the kinds of measures most people would advocate to combat terrorist groups…is that the kind of thing you’re envisioning, or something else? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/104 "2013-08-24T15:56:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I mean what do people think is actually going to happen? Terrorist attacks worse than 9/11? A financial crisis worse than 2008? The country seems to manage to recover from these things well enough. We’re (well at least I) am not talking about a single or even a cluster events, I’m specifically referring to the inevitable outcome based our current trajectory. When, for the first time in American history, you have American cities going into bankruptcy, something is terribly, terribly, terribly fucked up with our country. When you overlay this with our debt, low taxes, _open antipathy_ toward government by U.S Senators and Representatives, we’ve essentially don’t have a government “of the People, by the People, and of the People,” but rather something that quite unlike it. [QUOTE=Conservian] The hardest thing about knowing what America once was, is now, and will soon become is accepting the reality that it was “the people” who ultimately failed to preserve and fortify their priceless inheritance of individual liberty \. [/QUOTE] I concur with this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/105 "2013-08-24T16:03:12Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > “Terrorist organization” is a strong term, but I’ll believe you mean what you say. So if it’s not too much of a hijack, I’m really curious: what solution would you advocate? The ordered disbanding and outlawing of the Republican Party? The arrest, trial, and imprisonment of its leaders? The use of physical force if there is resistance? > > Those are the kinds of measures most people would advocate to combat terrorist groups…is that the kind of thing you’re envisioning, or something else? 😕 I can’t speak for **BobLibDem** , but I would say simply calling them on their tactics and refusing to be terrorized. I don’t agree that the tactics you suggest are good ways to deal with terrorists. Domestic terrorism requires quiet courage, not hysterical shows of force. Bring back real investigative journalism from the corners where it lurks, and elevate the discourse among ordinary citizens so that they can actually follow a story for more than fifteen seconds and really think about it. Get everyone asking difficult questions of our politicians and voting against those who cannot or will not give satisfactory answers. Like everything else, the solution involves the gradual and sustained output of hard work. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/106 "2013-08-24T18:48:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d say that America was founded on not repeating the mistakes of the old world, and nothing has changed in that regard. > > That doesn’t mean there’s nothing we can learn. Comparing health care systems, the Swiss model is vastly superior to the British model. Which might be why our brand new shiny UHC system is based on the Swiss model(although some misguided lefties still pine for the NHS model). But that’s an example of lefties thinking that there’s nothing to learn from other countries’ experience. Theory trumps empiricism with a big slice of the left. “Lefties” are the ones who think there’s nothing to learn by other countries’ experence? 😕😕😕 You really can’t be serious about that. Right wingers are the ones telling everyone ANY form of socialized medicine means they pull the plug on grandma and Obama Care is going to kill untold millions of people. No, you are wrong. Right wingers are the foremost ones who say we cannot learn from other countries, because America is “different” than all other first world countries and what works for every other first world country can’t work here because, something something. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/107 "2013-08-24T19:05:22Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I can’t speak for **BobLibDem** , but I would say simply calling them on their tactics and refusing to be terrorized. I don’t agree that the tactics you suggest are good ways to deal with terrorists. Domestic terrorism requires quiet courage, not hysterical shows of force. Bring back real investigative journalism from the corners where it lurks, and elevate the discourse among ordinary citizens so that they can actually follow a story for more than fifteen seconds and really think about it. Get everyone asking difficult questions of our politicians and voting against those who cannot or will not give satisfactory answers. Like everything else, the solution involves the gradual and sustained output of hard work. Well, that’s where the terminology comes into play, because the kinds of things you’re recommending sound to me not like how you’d deal with a true _terrorist_ organization, but with a particularly annoying opposition political party. Elevating discourse, voting out unsatisfactory politicians…that, for most people, falls under normal politics, not counter-terrorism. BobLibDem and some others seem to think that Republicans are far, far more dangerous and sinister than that, which makes me wonder how they would want to act. I mean, there was a reference upthread about the Republicans doing the modern equivalent of burning the Reichstag as a pretext for seizing power. We’ve all probably daydreamed about what we would do if we lived in Nazi Germany in the '30s, knowing what we know now. Would we be the hero, could we take down Hitler, would we flee, or prepare a hiding place? For people who really believe we are living through a similar such moment, it must present a really interesting/scary dilemma. What _would_ you do in that kind of situation? What would you fervently want your government to do? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/108 "2013-08-24T19:18:08Z")
**Rodgers01,** I agree with them that it’s terrorism. I don’t understand why you think counter-terrorism cannot be non-violent or slow and sustained. By definition, terrorism relies on terror, and therefore by definition the way to knock out terrorists’ teeth is to stop being terrified. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/109 "2013-08-25T03:28:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a different mentality. The military holds people accountable and uses people where they are needed. If the military was run like a civilian government agency, we’d be conquered by Haiti over a weekend. Some people who know more about the subject than we do disagree. [http://www.npr.org/2012/12/11/166963643/tracing-military-failures-holding-the-generals-accountable](http://www.npr.org/2012/12/11/166963643/tracing-military-failures-holding-the-generals-accountable) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/110 "2013-08-25T03:44:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Seconded. > > Last week I visited Jackson, Wyoming. I walked around freely, day or night, without any fear of crime. I visited pleasant shops, met the owners, and purchased American- and foreign-made items at reasonable prices. I ate at a variety of small restaurants and stayed at a privately-owned bed and breakfast. I went rafting, saw a rodeo, and visited museums and art galleries. There are many countries where the ordinary people are not able to do these things. So overall the United States seems to be doing pretty well. Yeah, rodeos tend to be lacking 😛 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/111 "2013-08-25T12:52:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Some people who know more about the subject than we do disagree. > > [Interview: Thomas Ricks, Author Of 'The Generals' | Holding 'The Generals' Accountable : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/12/11/166963643/tracing-military-failures-holding-the-generals-accountable) Then I will change my argument to “relatively accountable”. For the privates, non-coms and lower officers, there sure as hell is instant accountability when you screw up. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769/112 "2013-08-25T14:10:01Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > “Terrorist organization” is a strong term, but I’ll believe you mean what you say. So if it’s not too much of a hijack, I’m really curious: what solution would you advocate? The ordered disbanding and outlawing of the Republican Party? The arrest, trial, and imprisonment of its leaders? The use of physical force if there is resistance? > > Those are the kinds of measures most people would advocate to combat terrorist groups…is that the kind of thing you’re envisioning, or something else? 😕 These aren’t terrorists who fight with bombs, they fight with words. You fight them with words. You call them out for what they are. Suppose the Democratic Party started running ads that (gasp) _defended_ Obamacare? Suppose Obama started doing fireside chats to explain what the hell he’s up against? McConnell and Boehner are like schoolyard bullies who demand your lunch money. First thing to do is stop giving them your lunch money. Second thing is to get on the media to start calling out the lies. Journalism isn’t just tacking on the suffix “gate” to a word every time someone farts. Get some people to argue with the talking heads. When they bring up Benghazi, ask them what the fuck the thing a fighter jet would have done to dispel a riot. Demand why they weren’t up in arms when embassies and consulates were attacked with American deaths during the Chimpy Administration. Every time the IRS “scandal” is brought up, demand to know why they aren’t calling out the IRS for not enforcing the statute that these groups must be _exclusively_ dealing with social welfare. Jesus Christ, we can’t continually having Obama play George McFly to the right wing Biffs of the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-how-pessimistic-are-you-about-the-future-of-your-country/666769.md?page=5)