# U.S. citizens serving in foreign militaries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 25, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269 "2000-10-25T15:59:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/1 "2000-10-25T15:59:22Z")
Are American citizens allowed to serve in armed forces of other countries, or do they lose their citizenship if they do that? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/2 "2000-10-25T16:05:37Z")
Yes. - Alessan, dual Israeli-U.S. citizen from birth, Sergeant (res.), Israeli Defense Force. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/3 "2000-10-25T16:14:19Z")
What would happen if the U.S. went to war against Israel? Wouldn’t that create all kinds of problems for folks like this? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/4 "2000-10-25T16:17:23Z")
Read Ernest Hemingway’s “For Whom The Bell Tolls” and “Farewell to Arms”. Both have American’s serving in foreign military. ---
**Author:** ![NeePravda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NeePravda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeePravda)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/5 "2000-10-25T16:25:19Z")
Wasn’t there a Supreme Court Decision in the '60’s that upheld the right of some Americans to serve in the Israeli Army without losing their citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/6 "2000-10-25T16:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neidhart \* > Are American citizens allowed to serve in armed forces of other countries, or do they lose their citizenship if they do that? Only if you’re an officer or the country is at war with the USA. IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT TITLE III CHAPTER 3 - LOSS OF NATIONALITY [/doc/{@7219}/hits\_only?"]INA: ACT 349 - LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN]([http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/cgi-bin/folioisa.dll/lawbooks.nfo/query=](http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/cgi-bin/folioisa.dll/lawbooks.nfo/query=)[jump!3A!27act349!27) > [@](#): > > Sec. 349. [8 U.S.C. 1481] > > (a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality- > > (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or > > (2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or > > (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if > > (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or > > (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or > > (4)(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or > > (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or > > (5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or > > (6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or > > (7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, United States Code, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, United States Code, or violating section 2384 of said title by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction. > > (b)1/ Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after the enactment of this subsection under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/7 "2000-10-25T17:10:18Z")
Thanks! I assume the U.S. allows immigrants who aren’t yet citizens to serve in its military too? I notice that you can also lose your citizenship by being convicted of attempting a violent overthrow of the government. Have any militia types or Weathermen ever had it revoked in that way? Don’t remember hearing of it, if so. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/8 "2000-10-25T17:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neidhart \* > I assume the U.S. allows immigrants who aren’t yet citizens to serve in its military too? Yes, as a matter of fact that is an issue with Filipinos serving in the USA military. Filipinos serving during World War II were not offered the possibility of becoming US citizens, contrary to citizens of other countries that served in the US army (or so I’ve been told.) > [@](#): > > I notice that you can also lose your citizenship by being convicted of attempting a violent overthrow of the government. Have any militia types or Weathermen ever had it revoked in that way? Don’t remember hearing of it, if so. In my experience, the “attempting a violent overthrow” expression is a “code phrase” used to designate the Communist Party. However, on the face of it, it would seem to apply to any US terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/9 "2000-10-25T17:31:38Z")
There was a segment yesterday on a TV magazine about some Afghan guy who lives in the DC area where he owns a business but he is also a MIG pilot for the Talibans. Now, that things have heated up he has been called back in case he is needed. I always had a suspicion that the INS people were none too bright but this has to take the cake. They are deporting truckloads of people who you would think would have a fair right to stay but this guy is living here legally while being in the military of a terrorist country hostile to the USA. There was some convoluted explanation that he had fought against the soviets and this was his reward, but come on! ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/10 "2000-10-25T17:51:36Z")
Ask Michael New if you’re allowed to serve in foreign military forces…He refused to wear UN insignia, due to the fact that his oath was to uphold the Constitution and the United States, not to serve foreign powers. He was court-martialed for that refusal. Isn’t the Clinton/Gore regime great? ---
**Author:** ![mealypotaotes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/54ee81/32.png) [@mealypotaotes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mealypotaotes)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/11 "2000-10-25T19:53:56Z")
Several dozen New Bruswickers served with the Maine regulars in the Civil War, bakc when the Maine-NB border was merely a suggestion. From 1914-1916, the first half of WW I the US decided to sit out while selling arms to both sides, scores of yanks joined the Canadian army to get into the action. Ditto WW II. A handful of Canadian Cree Indians, fed up with trying to find work in Canada during the 60s’, joined the US Army and spent three tours as scouts in Vietnam. And of course, hundreds of Americans were . . . stationed, shall we say in Canada during the Vietnam War. As Canada had no draft, dodging the draft wasn’t a crime in Canada - hence, draft avoiders couldn’t be deported. ---
**Author:** ![NeePravda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NeePravda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeePravda)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/12 "2000-10-25T20:39:24Z")
In 1967, the Supreme Court ruled in Afroyim v. Rusk that the 14th Ammendment elevated Citizenship to a Constitutionally protected Right. Thus, an American cannot loose his citizenship without his consent. This effectivly nullified most of the USC relating to loss of citizenship through voting in a foreign election, swearing allegence to a foreign government or serving in a foreign military. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/13 "2000-10-25T22:15:40Z")
I used to know a guy who claimed that his father, an American citizen, had served in the British Royal Navy … but it should be noted that both father and son were complete nut cases. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/14 "2000-10-25T22:20:44Z")
The Royal Air Force, IIRC, had at least one Free French squadron, more than one Polish squadron and one American volunteer squadron during World War 2. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/15 "2000-10-26T17:37:42Z")
I recall reading about the details of this problem. Basically, an American citizen can serve in a foreign military as long as you don’t volunteer. If you get drafted, you won’t be forced to surrender US citizenship. There are even circumstances where you can be drafted into an army at war against the US and still not lose your citizenship. I heard of a test case of US-born Japanese who were in Japan when WWII broke out, they were drafted and served in the Japanese army, even fighting against US troops. But the US courts decided the service was involuntary and allowed them to retain their US citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/16 "2000-10-26T18:43:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*Ask Michael New if you’re allowed to serve in foreign military forces…He refused to wear UN insignia, due to the fact that his oath was to uphold the Constitution and the United States, not to serve foreign powers. He was court-martialed for that refusal. > > Isn’t the Clinton/Gore regime great? \*\* He disobeyed a direct and legal order, and you’re blaming Bill Clinton for his being court-martialed? If you can’t even FOLLOW FRIGGING ORDERS, you _should_ be court-martialed. I wonder if “Gross stupidity” is in the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-citizens-serving-in-foreign-militaries/38269/17 "2000-10-26T20:39:10Z")
One of my coworkers hotfooted it over to Israel way back when things were heating up with the intention of enlisting. Unfortunately, that was the 13-days war and by the time he got over there, there wasn’t as much zionistic ass-kicking to do as he’d hoped. He did stay, however, and worked as a civilian in the army, guarding some outpost. He’s back and never lost his citizenship.