# U.S. Convoy attacked in Gaza. Should the U.S. retaliate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2003, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534 "2003-10-15T09:30:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monty2\_2001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@monty2\_2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monty2_2001)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/41 "2003-10-16T05:59:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*I wouldnt shoot a CIA convoy since they are mostly civil servants and their bosses are safely hidden away back home… but if Rummy came down the road… oh my … what a temptation. I would shoot him without blinking in the name of world peace. \*\* You are an evil ghoul. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/42 "2003-10-16T06:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Wednesday condemned the attack as an “awful crime” and said he ordered an investigation. I hear he’s asking George W. Bush for tips from the hunt on which White House staffer leaked Joe Wilson’s wife’s identity as a CIA agent. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/43 "2003-10-16T08:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > \*\*Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on Wednesday condemned the attack as an “awful crime” and said he ordered an investigation. > > 😃 > > I bet there’s some real intensive _investigative_ work going on. \*\* Your skepticism may have been misplaced, as the Palestinian Police have made some arrests, and it doesn’t appear to be just a “round up the usual suspects” kind of thing. Read about it [here](http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/44 "2003-10-16T08:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*I hear he’s asking George W. Bush for tips from the hunt on which White House staffer leaked Joe Wilson’s wife’s identity as a CIA agent. 😃 \*\* Off topic, but yeah, that is hilarious, isn’t it?! As if there aren’t several dozen people in the White House who know exactly who put out that information! I say subpoena all of them, take sworn statements, and see who’s willing to risk a perjury or obstruction of justice charge. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/45 "2003-10-16T09:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > Is there something about Islamic culture that believes that every problem can be solved by shooting and blowing stuff up? Well, they _do_ watch a lot of American movies. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/46 "2003-10-16T10:07:20Z")
The way I have seen it reported is that it was in fact CIA people. I find the “civilians granting scholarships” story extremely hard to swallow. In any case, when the USA forces went around shooting reporters in Iraq their justification was always “this is a war zone, what do you expect? shit happens and if you can’t take the risk then stay home”. Well, they can use their own advice now. If you send “fullbright granting civilians” into a war zone, shit happens and they are bound to get shot at. And I interpret London\_calling’s post as meaning that if you see foreign forces coming down your street you’d be justified in resisting them with force. I think we can all agree with that sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/47 "2003-10-16T10:31:36Z")
So if a convoy of Mexicans comes rolling down my street I have every right to bomb them? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/48 "2003-10-16T10:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*So if a convoy of Mexicans comes rolling down my street I have every right to bomb them? \*\* Unless you are in Mexico, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/49 "2003-10-16T11:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > So if a convoy of Mexicans comes rolling down my street I have every right to bomb them? That depends on many factors. If Mexican forces are invading and occupying the US and you are a member of the US army then unquestionably yes. If they are Mexican forces invading and occupying the US and you are a civilian resisting, I guess you are morally entitled to do it but you may not be protected by the Geneva convention. Better join the army. If they are unarmed reporters or red cross personnel then no. If they are unarmed and no immediate threat to you then, if you can, you should take them prisoners but if that is not possible then I guess it is a grey area. Some might argue you should let them go and some might argue you should not let them go as they will continue to occupy your country. It can get even more grey. suppose they are not even the main occupiers but are aiding the occupiers. It can be argued they are still fair targets. Now, the Palestinians consider their homeland is occupied by Israel and they consider themselves to be resisting the occupation. In that case IDF forces which enter Palestinian lands are fair target. Whether American personnel which are not an immediate threat but are there aiding Israel in the occupation are fair targets is a judgment call. They are definitely much closer to being considered fair targets than reporters or civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/50 "2003-10-16T12:39:43Z")
No matter how convulted and ridiculous the ‘logic’, you’ll always find a way to justify attacks against American gov’t officials, eh? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/51 "2003-10-16T12:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dissonance \* > London\_Calling, I really don’t get how you’ve automatically decided that a convoy of diplomats and their security guards amount to the CIA, I know, I shock myself sometimes! Actually, I read the Haaretz article linked to in the OP and that’s what it says, many times – one imagines they are reasonably well connected in their own backyard and don’t put letters together that form ‘CIA’ lightly. Or, in fact, it’s what the article did say, it’s a very different article this morning to the one they put up yesterday and know also includes denials of CIA involvement from the CIA – maybe the Israeli Intelligence network in Gaza just isn’t up to the job and got it horribly wrong 😃 I can only surmise reality has shifted already. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dissonance \* > or for that matter why they deserve to be bombed even if they were. I know, I know, such nice boys! What was I thinking of . . . people all over Latin and South America, Asia, Africa and throughout the Middle East will be appalled . . . Fwiw, when faced with the modern-day equivalent of the Four Horsemen, I’d be inclined to shoot first and ask questions later – it’s not as if the good ol’ boys wouldn’t understand and appreciate that philosophy. Actually, I’d imagine they’d be offended if one didn’t think like that about them, such is there ‘self-esteem’. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/52 "2003-10-16T12:48:06Z")
No, I did not “justify” it and the fact that they are American has zero to do with the situation. I am saying that you are always entitled to repel a foreign invasion of your homeland and you are never entitled to kill innocent civilians who have done you no harm and that this falls at neither end but falls somewhere in between. What’s so hard to understand? American forces have killed civilians in Iraq with less justification so, according to American doctrine, the killings in Gaza would be justified. If it were up to me there would be much less killing in Palestine, in Israel, in Iraq and everywhere else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/53 "2003-10-16T12:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*I am saying that you are always entitled to repel a foreign invasion of your homeland… \*\* Of course. \*\* > [@](#): > > …and you are never entitled to kill innocent civilians who have done you no harm… \*\* Sure. \*\* > [@](#): > > …and that this falls at neither end but falls somewhere in between. \*\* And now we enter fantasyland. Even if these were CIA personnel, you do realise that the CIA is there at the request of both governments, don’t you? Your logic would justify shooting up the UN over in NYC. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/54 "2003-10-16T13:05:02Z")
**Brutus** - Right, like Arafat doesn’t have his balls in a shall-we-expell-him vice. At the moment (and without a PM), he does what he’s told. Period. At least above the table. He doesn’t get to choose who comes-a-callin’ btw, what Palestinian “Government” is this of which you speak ? that’s a very sensible concession by you, perhaps you have influence in higher places . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/55 "2003-10-16T13:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*No matter how convulted and ridiculous the ‘logic’, you’ll always find a way to justify attacks against American gov’t officials, eh? \*\* That’s right **Brutus**. We all hate America, don’t you know. Honest to Pete, can’t you find some other response to this sort of thing except that old canard? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/56 "2003-10-16T13:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*…btw, what Palestinian “Government” is this of which you speak ? that’s a very sensible concession by you, perhaps you have influence in higher places . . . ? \*\* The PA is the gov’t of the Palestinian people, in Gaza and the West Bank. Well, most of those places. Too bad they pissed away their vote (probably the only one they will ever get) on Arafat. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/57 "2003-10-16T13:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > Even if these were CIA personnel, you do realise that the CIA is there at the request of both governments, don’t you? I am not aware of that or of the contrary and I have expressed no opinion on that matter. I have just expressed my opinions regarding hypothetical situations. I have expressed no definite opinion over this particular act. Why are you so aggressive and confrontational? My judgment would be entirely dependent on the circumstances which I do not know in particular. The fact that they are American is irrelevant to me. If they are there at the request of the Palestinian Authority then, obviouly, it is comparable to American citizens shooting at Mexican forces which were on US soil at the invitation of the US government (not that I think a few American militias would not do it). What is yet to be determined is what these people were doing and how. You are sure they were there invited by the PA. I am not so sure so I can only make hypothetical judgments. There has been a lot of contradictory information. There were reports that the US government denied they were CIA and said they were civilians granting scholarships. This sets off my BS detector. Then we hear they may be CIA. What is the US government hiding? If it is all in the up and up, why not come clean? As I say, i do not have enough information and my judgment depends on the particulars. But being an American is not a protection which makes killing you any worse. As I say, US forces have killed plenty of innocent people in Iraq. I do not condone that and I would not condone the killing of Americans under similar circumstances. But I am not about to condem the death of American government officials as worse than the killing of innocent Iraqis and reporters in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/58 "2003-10-16T13:18:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*That’s right **Brutus**. We all hate America, don’t you know. > > Honest to Pete, can’t you find some other response to this sort of thing except that old canard? \*\* Calling a spade a spade, and all that. Go back and read some of the interesting and colorfull posts in this thread. From killing Rummy to shooting CIA agents, I certainly wouldn’t characterize those attitudes as being particularily friendly towards America. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/59 "2003-10-16T13:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by swami \* > Were you an Iraqi war supporter **msmith537**? \*\* No, I support Saddams right as a sovereign leader to murder and torture whomever he pleases. Actually I do support the war. I think the method of carrying it out could have been a little better. > [@](#): > > ## _Originally posted by Bryan Ekers_ > > ## Originally posted by msmith537 Is there something about Islamic culture that believes that every problem can be solved by shooting and blowing stuff up? > > Well, they do watch a lot of American movies. So do I and I don’t want to go around blowing up infidels (well…mostly 😉 ) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by London\_Calling_ > Fwiw, when faced with the modern-day equivalent of the Four Horsemen, I’d be inclined to shoot first and ask questions later – it’s not as if the good ol’ boys wouldn’t understand and appreciate that philosophy. Actually, I’d imagine they’d be offended if one didn’t think like that about them, such is there ‘self-esteem’. That’s what we need in the world. More ignorent rednecks of all races and creeds. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > And I interpret London\_calling’s post as meaning that if you see foreign forces coming down your street you’d be justified in resisting them with force. I think we can all agree with that sentiment. I assume you mean military forces and are not advocating firebombing Chinatown or Little Italy. Should UN peacekeepers also be attacked on sight? By the way, I noticed in the news today that the PA has already arrested 3 suspects. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534/60 "2003-10-16T14:08:56Z")
\>\> I assume you mean military forces and are not advocating firebombing Chinatown or Little Italy Well, since he mentioned a “CIA convoy” and not a “CIA restaurant” I assume he was referring to a foreign government invading his country and not to foreign individuals setting up restaurants after obtaining the necessary permits and health inspections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-convoy-attacked-in-gaza-should-the-u-s-retaliate/207534.md?page=4)