# U.S. Dept. of Defense: 25,000+ U.S. soldiers have deserted since 2003. WHAT?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194 "2008-03-29T19:12:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/1 "2008-03-29T19:12:51Z")
An [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/magazine/23wwln-essay-t.html?scp=1&sq=ehrenreich&st=nyt) in last Sunday’s New York Times Magazine claims that “more than 25,000 American soldiers … according to the United States Department of Defense, have deserted since 2003…” They qualify the statistic a little by saying that, “the D.O.D defines a deserter as anyone who has been AWOL for 30 consecutive days or who seeks asylum in a foreign country.” Okay, so probably a lot of those “deserters” were just booze-inspired grunts who snuck back home to see their gf/bf for a couple of weeks before slinking back to the military after the buzz wore off. But, _ **25,000+** _!? That’s a staggering number, even after you subtract all the hungover returnees. So, is this number for real? Or is there some unmentioned factor that disguises the truth that the number of actual deserters – that is, soldiers who go AWOL for good or those who seek asylum in foreign countries – is actually pretty small. If that number is not so small, how come this appalling fact is not better pubicized? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/2 "2008-03-29T19:19:21Z")
[QUOTE=stuyguy] They qualify the statistic a little by saying that, “the D.O.D defines a deserter as anyone who has been AWOL for 30 consecutive days or who seeks asylum in a foreign country.” [/QUOTE] Yeah, this does seem _extremely_ high. If I recall correctly, a ‘desertion’ may also be where a reservist/Guardsman fails to appear to a drill weekend, and then fails to make any sort of report in for a time after that. That could account for a percentage of the 25k, but even then. . . that still seems high. Tripler But 25k . . . wow. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/3 "2008-03-29T19:32:05Z")
It also seems high considering that none of those going AWOL were drafted. Although, at the time they signed up, they might not have thought volunteering meant active combat duty. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/4 "2008-03-29T19:58:20Z")
[This Army Times](http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/11/military_desertions_071115w/) article said there were ~5,000 desertions in 2006. So 25,000 since 2003 sounds like the right ballpark. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/5 "2008-03-29T20:04:40Z")
Maybe the Commander in Chief thinks it would be _awkward_ to prosecute desertion charges. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/6 "2008-03-29T20:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] Maybe the Commander in Chief thinks it would be _awkward_ to prosecute desertion charges. [/QUOTE] Nope. NPRs done several pieces on soldiers who’ve deserted because they disagreed with the current war, and the Administration’s going after them. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/7 "2008-03-30T01:21:12Z")
But are all those still deserted? So 25 K did the nasty but how many of that same # have returned, been caught, etc.? Liars figure and figures lie… Police have made 52 arrests concerning bad things. \*::: news does not say that 51 were bad arrests for one reason or another - they still can scream the head line :: \* passes salt shaker… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/8 "2008-03-30T02:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=stuyguy] or who seeks asylum in a foreign country." [/QUOTE] What would be these countries? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/9 "2008-03-30T02:31:29Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] What would be these countries? [/QUOTE] Canada, for one. The NPR reports I’ve heard (and I’ve looked, but I can’t figure out how to drill the results there down, as keying in “deserter” will also get you entries with “desert” and adding other terms doesn’t cut the listings down significantly) mentions that at least two soldiers are in Canada and fighting extradition to the US. (The one soldier, I _really_ don’t have any sympathy for. He joined the Army, put in for Special Forces [or other highly specialized position which involves lots of killing] and then was upset when he found out that he was going to have to kill people. I mean, I could kind of see it if you went in planning on being a medic, and got stuck in the infantry because they had too many medics, but he _picked_ Special Forces.) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/10 "2008-03-30T02:43:09Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] (The one soldier, I _really_ don’t have any sympathy for. He joined the Army, put in for Special Forces [or other highly specialized position which involves lots of killing] and then was upset when he found out that he was going to have to kill people. I mean, I could kind of see it if you went in planning on being a medic, and got stuck in the infantry because they had too many medics, but he _picked_ Special Forces.) [/QUOTE] If memory serves (and if we’re talking about the same guy) he served a full tour in Afghanistan and then found religion after returning to the States, and started going to Quaker meetings, resulting in his becoming a pacifist. So it’s not like he was suddenly blindsided by the fact that joining the infantry was going to involve shooting at people. He just changed his views after a year or two. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/11 "2008-03-30T02:48:34Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] If memory serves (and if we’re talking about the same guy) he served a full tour in Afghanistan and then found religion after returning to the States, and started going to Quaker meetings, resulting in his becoming a pacifist. So it’s not like he was suddenly blindsided by the fact that joining the infantry was going to involve shooting at people. He just changed his views after a year or two. [/QUOTE] Different guy, as this one didn’t serve in Afghanistan as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/12 "2008-03-30T06:14:37Z")
New York Times Magazine Article: [War Dodgers](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/magazine/23wwln-essay-t.html?ref=magazine). **Tuckerfan** , here’s the wiki article on one of them, [Jeremy Hinzman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hinzman), who served a term in Afghanistan before he deserted. Two previous threads: [US Soldiers Defect to Canada](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=251736) [Canadian Supremes: AWOL U.S. soldiers are not refugees](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=444308) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/13 "2008-03-30T06:24:43Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] **Tuckerfan** , here’s the wiki article on one of them, [Jeremy Hinzman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hinzman), who served a term in Afghanistan before he deserted. [/QUOTE] Again, the guy I’m thinking of _didn’t_ serve in Afghanistan. As I recall, he joined in 2003 (after the war in Iraq started), and it was while he was at bootcamp that he realized he might actually have to kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/14 "2008-03-30T07:02:33Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] It also seems high considering that none of those going AWOL were drafted. Although, at the time they signed up, they might not have thought volunteering meant active combat duty. [/QUOTE] How could that be? The longest enlistment that I am aware of is for 6 years. That means current enlistees were at the minimum joining up during the war in Afghanistan and unless they were blind they couldn’t have missed Iraq right over the horizon. I cannot believe that anybody is that naive. You’re not joining the Peace Corps, you’re joining the military. Combat is our profession. Even for Guardsmen and Reservists. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/15 "2008-03-30T09:18:50Z")
Do they count IRR call-ups who don’t report as deserters? Because when I got called up, they told us we were only about 50% of those called (about 60 out of 120). The rest blew it off. That would probably be a large fraction of the 25,000, right there. And a lot of us didn’t sign up during Afghanistan or Iraq. I signed up before September 11th. That isn’t an excuse, of course; I knew what I was getting into even though I couldn’t foresee a war at the time. But it might help explain some of the desertions. In AIT, one of my classmates deserted, and his father was a Sergeant Major stationed at that very same post. So some people are just stupid, too. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/16 "2008-03-30T10:25:58Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Canada, for one. [/QUOTE] Well, I asked precisely because I understood that Canada didn’t grant anymore asylum to desertors. Is there any other country that would? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/17 "2008-03-30T12:24:24Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Again, the guy I’m thinking of _didn’t_ serve in Afghanistan. As I recall, he joined in 2003 (after the war in Iraq started), and it was while he was at bootcamp that he realized he might actually have to kill someone. [/QUOTE] I could be wrong, but my understanding is the military is usually pretty decent about letting people out during boot-camp if they start having second thoughts or “wash out”. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/18 "2008-03-30T12:34:39Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] > [@Musicat](#): > > It also seems high considering that none of those going AWOL were drafted. Although, at the time they signed up, they might not have thought volunteering meant active combat duty. How could that be? The longest enlistment that I am aware of is for 6 years. That means current enlistees were at the minimum joining up during the war in Afghanistan and unless they were blind they couldn’t have missed Iraq right over the horizon. I cannot believe that anybody is that naive. You’re not joining the Peace Corps, you’re joining the military. Combat is our profession. Even for Guardsmen and Reservists. [/QUOTE] You have a point about, perhaps the last 18 years (Gulf I, II), but the US military has always emphasized “it’s a job like any other but you get to go to exotic places”, not to mention offering incentives like assignment choices (for a while after enlistment) and handfuls of college money. I don’t recall any ads that said, “join the army, meet strange people, kill them and get blown up”. As an example of the propaganda, the US Army produces every 2 weeks a slick, half-hour TV show called _Army Newswatch_, provided free to local cable access channels, which are often hungry for good material. While the show certainly does not ignore fighting zones, it is heavy on the “good” the soldiers are doing worldwide by building hospitals and uplifting the community by passing out candy. To look at that video, you’d think the US military was the world’s biggest charity and infrastructure builder and a job like that would be personally rewarding. _Not a single image of dead, injured, bullet-ridden, mangled soldiers or flag-draped caskets is ever shown._ Firefights are exciting and death is not a factor. Peace Corps? It sure looks a lot like that, you bet. And National Guard recuitment has always emphasized “just a few weekends a year” to serve your country and get money for school. And over the last century or so, being called up for full tours of duty was fairly uncommon. When I grew up, it wasn’t a big factor towards a join decision. Combat is our profession? But no – “Peace is our profession!” Watching propaganda like this, if the only views seen, would be a big incentive to join up and see the world. I think some people fell for it. > [@Simplicio](#): > > I could be wrong, but my understanding is the military is usually pretty decent about letting people out during boot-camp if they start having second thoughts or “wash out”. :rolleyes: Ever watch _A Few Good Men_? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/19 "2008-03-30T12:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Y :rolleyes: Ever watch _A Few Good Men_? [/QUOTE] Wasn’t a boot camp. The “screw-up” soldier was a guard at Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/20 "2008-03-30T13:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > **DanBlather** > Maybe the Commander in Chief thinks it would be awkward to prosecute desertion charges. > > \*\*Tuckerfan \*\*Nope. NPRs done several pieces on soldiers who’ve deserted because they disagreed with the current war, and the Administration’s going after them. I think Dan may be referring to the current Commander-in-chief’s own personal military history, ie the fact that Bush himself could arguably be classed as a [deserter](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html) by some people, YMMV. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194.md?page=2)