# U.S. Dept. of Defense: 25,000+ U.S. soldiers have deserted since 2003. WHAT?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194 "2008-03-29T19:12:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/21 "2008-03-30T13:24:54Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] Wasn’t a boot camp. The “screw-up” soldier was a guard at Guantanamo. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t non-fiction, either. But the military doesn’t have a reputation of willingly discharging those who decide it’s not for them. Instead, they try to beat them into submission, and I suggested that fictitious story as an illustration. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/22 "2008-03-30T13:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=clairobscur] Well, I asked precisely because I understood that Canada didn’t grant anymore asylum to desertors. Is there any other country that would? [/QUOTE] Canada doesn’t, but that doesn’t stop people from trying. During the Vietnam War, Canada got a lot of draft-dodgers from the US, but it wasn’t a case of asylum. Our extradition treaty with the US didn’t cover draft-dodgers, because extradition is usually based on the principle of double criminality - the host country normally will only extradite to the requesting country if the alleged offence is also an offence in the host country. Since Canada doesn’t have a draft, there was no Canadian equivalent to the offence of avoiding the draft that most of the Vietnam draft-dodgers were alleged to have committed, so they weren’t subject to the extradition treaty. The situation is different for those serving in the US military who desert. Canada has that offence, so that is covered by the extradition treaty, and the US could apply to extradite. See **Unca Cec’s** column: [Could U.S. draft evaders be extradited from Canada now?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_141.html) (Note that it’s a very old column, probably from the 80s, based on the reference to the Canadian economy in the 70s, but it’s still accurate on the legal situation.) Even simpler than extradition, the Canadian government can institute deportation proceedings against them, since they normally don’t have the proper immigration status under Canadian law. That’s why the current crop of conscientious objectors who have deserted from the US military and come to Canada are having troubles staying - they can be extradited and/or deported. So they’ve been applying for refugee status - without success, as discussed in the older thread I linked to: [Canadian Supremes: AWOL U.S. soldiers are not refugees](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=444308) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/23 "2008-03-30T13:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] You have a point about, perhaps the last 18 years (Gulf I, II), but the US military has always emphasized “it’s a job like any other but you get to go to exotic places”, not to mention offering incentives like assignment choices (for a while after enlistment) and handfuls of college money. I don’t recall any ads that said, “join the army, meet strange people, kill them and get blown up”. As an example of the propaganda, the US Army produces every 2 weeks a slick, half-hour TV show called _Army Newswatch_, provided free to local cable access channels, which are often hungry for good material. While the show certainly does not ignore fighting zones, it is heavy on the “good” the soldiers are doing worldwide by building hospitals and uplifting the community by passing out candy. To look at that video, you’d think the US military was the world’s biggest charity and infrastructure builder and a job like that would be personally rewarding. _Not a single image of dead, injured, bullet-ridden, mangled soldiers or flag-draped caskets is ever shown._ Firefights are exciting and death is not a factor. Peace Corps? It sure looks a lot like that, you bet. mbat is our profession? But no – “Peace is our profession!” Watching propaganda like this, if the only views seen, would be a big incentive to join up and see the world. I think some people fell for it. :rolleyes: Ever watch _A Few Good Men_? [/QUOTE] So these poor deluded innocents who get conned by the nasty recruiters,they are adults right? Supposedly with an adults maturity and intelligence? And they watch T.V. news,listen to the radio AND read newspapers but still they think that if they join the Army that they are’nt going to be required to fight or go to Afghan and Iraq? And I wouldn’t be stunned with amazement if they’d seen one or two war movies in the past and who knows maybe even some documentaries on the subject? No doubt they also think that they wont have to wear uniforms or do fitness or drill. Or maybe once they’re out there they discover that they are a little bit too cowardly to risk their necks. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/24 "2008-03-30T14:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] And National Guard recuitment has always emphasized “just a few weekends a year” to serve your country and get money for school. And over the last century or so, being called up for full tours of duty was fairly uncommon. When I grew up, it wasn’t a big factor towards a join decision. [/QUOTE] Which led to [This famous photo](http://www.paratrooper.net/commo/Uploads/Images/fc77f683-4aa9-4cd5-84b8-49ad.jpg). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/25 "2008-03-30T14:45:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] So these poor deluded innocents who get conned by the nasty recruiters,they are adults right? Supposedly with an adults maturity and intelligence? [/QUOTE] 18-21 year-olds come in all degrees of maturiy and intelligence. Some are incapable of making what you or I would say are adult decisions. And some get conned by some recruiters. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/26 "2008-03-30T15:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Wasn’t non-fiction, either. But the military doesn’t have a reputation of willingly discharging those who decide it’s not for them. Instead, they try to beat them into submission, and I suggested that fictitious story as an illustration. [/QUOTE] The military _does_ have a reputation for willingly discharging those it decides is not for them. That’s why there’s General Discharges, Discharge Under Other than Honorable circumstances, and Bad Conduct Discharges. I have worked on several boards and processes that recommended General Discharges, one including a ‘Failure to Adapt’ clause for an Airman Basic who just didn’t quite get the drift of military life (repeatedly late to work, couldn’t show proficiency in just about _anything_, allegations of domestic violence, etc). I don’t know what you mean by “beat them into submission”, nor do I know where you get your misconceptions from. Regarding your comment about _Army Newswatch_, you tell that anecdote like it’s completely onesided, as if they’re artificially inflating the reconstruction efforts. Yes, combat is taking place, but I think you far underestimate the volume of work and the support organizations that are doing the exact same medical, humanitarian, and construction missions you bemoan as ‘purely propaganda’. Tripler Been there, done that (but I bemoaned the lack of an occasional beer). ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/27 "2008-03-30T15:58:11Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Wasn’t non-fiction, either. But the military doesn’t have a reputation of willingly discharging those who decide it’s not for them. Instead, they try to beat them into submission, and I suggested that fictitious story as an illustration. [/QUOTE] They most certainly do let people out during basic training all the time because the military wasn’t for them. I witnessed it countless times during boot camp and then again at OTS twice. I want to say that if you get out during your first 6 months of service it is as though you were never in. I’ll have to research this a bit but I know, at least in the AF, if you get out before some cutoff time period you will have no record of ever having been in the military except in certain systems. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/28 "2008-03-30T16:01:02Z")
Hang on folks. We’re missing one key number here; viz., what was the desertion rate _before_ we took it upon ourselves to make the world safe for high-rise buildings? Five thousand per year doesn’t strike me as a terribly big number. If the American Armed Forces totals, say, 500,000 troops, that’s just one percent per year. Anyone have some hard numbers? (I wonder if the DoD website has a suitable FAQ?) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/29 "2008-03-30T16:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] Anyone have some hard numbers? (I wonder if the DoD website has a suitable FAQ?) [/QUOTE] The desertion rate is [up 80% over what it was before the war in Iraq](http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/17/america/NA-GEN-US-Military-Deserters.php): > [@](#): > > After six years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq, American soldiers are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980. The number of US Army deserters this year shows an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003. > > … > > Army desertion rates have fluctuated since the Vietnam War, when they peaked at 5 percent. In the 1970s they hovered between 1 and 3 percent, which is up to three out of every 100 soldiers. Those rates plunged in the 1980s and early 1990s to between 2 and 3 out of every 1,000 soldiers. > > Desertions began to creep up in the late 1990s into the turn of the century, when the United States conducted an air war in Kosovo and later sent peacekeeping troops there. > > The numbers declined in 2003 and 2004, in the early years of the Iraq war, but then began to increase steadily. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/30 "2008-03-30T16:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] Five thousand per year doesn’t strike me as a terribly big number. If the American Armed Forces totals, say, 500,000 troops, that’s just one percent per year. [/QUOTE] 1% a year in a volunteer army seems huge to me (though I think the armed forces is larger then 500k), YMMV of course. In anycase, the Army Times article says that it’s the highest rate since 2001 (when I presume a bunch of folks realized around September they’d be in combat next year and walked off) and up 40% from last year. ---
**Author:** ![greatshakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@greatshakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greatshakes)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/31 "2008-03-30T17:31:31Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] You have a point about, perhaps the last 18 years (Gulf I, II), but the US military has always emphasized “it’s a job like any other but you get to go to exotic places”, not to mention offering incentives like assignment choices (for a while after enlistment) and handfuls of college money. I don’t recall any ads that said, “join the army, meet strange people, kill them and get blown up”. As an example of the propaganda, the US Army produces every 2 weeks a slick, half-hour TV show called _Army Newswatch_, provided free to local cable access channels, which are often hungry for good material. While the show certainly does not ignore fighting zones, it is heavy on the “good” the soldiers are doing worldwide by building hospitals and uplifting the community by passing out candy. To look at that video, you’d think the US military was the world’s biggest charity and infrastructure builder and a job like that would be personally rewarding. _Not a single image of dead, injured, bullet-ridden, mangled soldiers or flag-draped caskets is ever shown._ Firefights are exciting and death is not a factor. Peace Corps? It sure looks a lot like that, you bet. And National Guard recuitment has always emphasized “just a few weekends a year” to serve your country and get money for school. And over the last century or so, being called up for full tours of duty was fairly uncommon. When I grew up, it wasn’t a big factor towards a join decision. Combat is our profession? But no – “Peace is our profession!” Watching propaganda like this, if the only views seen, would be a big incentive to join up and see the world. I think some people fell for it. :rolleyes: Ever watch _A Few Good Men_? [/QUOTE] Somehow, I doubt that ANY recruit has ever watched Army Newswatch. I could be wrong though. also, your last paragraph is quite a statement: “If the only views seen.” Yes, If American Idol were the only show seen, people would think that all of the people that control your life are an Englishman in a black T shirt, a hot babe that ascts drunk every now and then, and a black man who has a weight problem. But, neither of them are ‘the only views seen.’ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/32 "2008-03-30T17:42:37Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] So these poor deluded innocents who get conned by the nasty recruiters,they are adults right? Supposedly with an adults maturity and intelligence? And they watch T.V. news,listen to the radio AND read newspapers but still they think that if they join the Army that they are’nt going to be required to fight or go to Afghan and Iraq? And I wouldn’t be stunned with amazement if they’d seen one or two war movies in the past and who knows maybe even some documentaries on the subject? No doubt they also think that they wont have to wear uniforms or do fitness or drill. Or maybe once they’re out there they discover that they are a little bit too cowardly to risk their necks. [/QUOTE] Given how many people I’ve known who wanted to major in biology or go to veterinary or medical school until they found out blood was involved… yeah, the amount of ~18yo people who live in a pretty dimension all of their own is quite high. And yeah, the folks who wanted to be biologists because “animals are so pretty!” until they had to cut open an earthworm had thought biology was about feeding some species of rabbits which doesn’t reproduce like rabbits and doesn’t try to bite your fingers mistaking them for carrots. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/33 "2008-03-30T17:44:22Z")
[QUOTE=greatshakes] Yes, If American Idol were the only show seen, people would think that all of the people that control your life are an Englishman in a black T shirt, a hot babe that ascts drunk every now and then, and a black man who has a weight problem. But, neither of them are ‘the only views seen.’ [/QUOTE] Wait. When did they replace Paula Abdul? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/34 "2008-03-30T18:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Again, the guy I’m thinking of _didn’t_ serve in Afghanistan. As I recall, he joined in 2003 (after the war in Iraq started), and it was while he was at bootcamp that he realized he might actually have to kill someone. [/QUOTE] You might be thinking of Ehren Watada, but if that’s who you have in mind, you should be advised that [your facts are a little fuzzy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada). If you’re thinking of something else, then never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/35 "2008-03-30T18:19:02Z")
From the Wiki article: > [@](#): > > Watada’s court-martial ended in a mistrial when he argued that his orders were unlawful, because Military Judge John Head ruled that question can not be resolved within the military justice system, saying the argument was thus reduced to an admission of guilt. Now there’s a Catch-22 for you: 1. As a member of the military, you’re required by law to refuse to obey an unlawful command. 2. If you believe the order is unlawful because the war is unlawful, and refuse a command as a result, you will be court-martialed. 3. The court has no jurisdiction to determine if the war is illegal, so you’re guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/36 "2008-03-30T20:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] From the Wiki article: Now there’s a Catch-22 for you: 1. As a member of the military, you’re required by law to refuse to obey an unlawful command. 2. If you believe the order is unlawful because the war is unlawful, and refuse a command as a result, you will be court-martialed. 3. The court has no jurisdiction to determine if the war is illegal, so you’re guilty. [/QUOTE] There’s no catch-22 about it. The soldier doesn’t decide that the war is unlawful. If your command orders you “Get on that plane,” that’s a lawful order. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/37 "2008-03-30T20:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] You have a point about, perhaps the last 18 years (Gulf I, II), but the US military has always emphasized “it’s a job like any other but you get to go to exotic places”, not to mention offering incentives like assignment choices (for a while after enlistment) and handfuls of college money. I don’t recall any ads that said, “join the army, meet strange people, kill them and get blown up”. As an example of the propaganda, the US Army produces every 2 weeks a slick, half-hour TV show called _Army Newswatch_, provided free to local cable access channels, which are often hungry for good material. While the show certainly does not ignore fighting zones, it is heavy on the “good” the soldiers are doing worldwide by building hospitals and uplifting the community by passing out candy. To look at that video, you’d think the US military was the world’s biggest charity and infrastructure builder and a job like that would be personally rewarding. _Not a single image of dead, injured, bullet-ridden, mangled soldiers or flag-draped caskets is ever shown._ Firefights are exciting and death is not a factor. Peace Corps? It sure looks a lot like that, you bet. And National Guard recuitment has always emphasized “just a few weekends a year” to serve your country and get money for school. And over the last century or so, being called up for full tours of duty was fairly uncommon. When I grew up, it wasn’t a big factor towards a join decision. Combat is our profession? But no – “Peace is our profession!” Watching propaganda like this, if the only views seen, would be a big incentive to join up and see the world. I think some people fell for it. :rolleyes: Ever watch _A Few Good Men_? [/QUOTE] Hrm. Some other vocations you might accuse of offering propaganda would include: Nursing-helping others is emphasized over dealing with feces, vomit, death, and the potential for a needle stick carrying a bloodborne pathogen. Law Enforcement-protect and serve is emphasized over wrestling with drunks, people high on drugs, and the friendly folks who will gladly shoot you merely because you’re wearing a badge. Firefighting-more protect and serve with no mention of the abandoned houses set afire by people who just might have removed the lumber from the basement stairs for firewood, or the motel room fire that turns out to be a toxic and potentially explosive meth cook. Most jobs have a downside that isn’t spoken of in newspaper ads or job fairs. Those who fail to recognize this are incredibly naive or foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/38 "2008-03-31T02:51:49Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Combat is our profession. Even for Guardsmen and Reservists. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Yeah, or even Airmen. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/39 "2008-03-31T10:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] :rolleyes: Yeah, or even Airmen. [/QUOTE] Beg your pardon? 😕 Tripler - Airman. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194/40 "2008-03-31T12:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] :rolleyes: Yeah, or even Airmen. [/QUOTE] I AM a Guardsman. And yeah, I’ve been there. Roll your eyes all you want to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-dept-of-defense-25-000-u-s-soldiers-have-deserted-since-2003-what/443194.md?page=3)