# U.S. fighter aircraft (F-22 Raptor) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764 "2009-07-12T15:29:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/61 "2009-07-15T12:53:13Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > There are numerous high-performance designs in the works. My favorite is the [SU-47 Berkut](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47). While that might not be built in its present form, it is likely that its technology advances will be incorporated into other aircraft. > > Like I said, they haven’t given up, they just don’t have the coin to pay for it. That may change in the future. If the price of oil goes up again they’ll be swimming in money. Russia’s “answer” to the F-22 is the PAK-FA which is currently being developed. IIRC it has been confirmed that the PAK-FA will not have forward swept wings as the Su-47. We will supposedly find out for sure at the MAKS airshow in August, when it might be shown for the first time. It was scheduled to fly for the first time this year, but it might have been pushed to 2010. Hopefully we’ll get a look at the design at least. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/62 "2009-07-21T19:03:06Z")
The Senate has voted to [stop production](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090721/ap_on_go_co/us_defense_spending_9). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/63 "2009-07-22T03:12:52Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Russia’s “answer” to the F-22 is the PAK-FA which is currently being developed. > > IIRC it has been confirmed that the PAK-FA will not have forward swept wings as the Su-47. We will supposedly find out for sure at the MAKS airshow in August, when it might be shown for the first time. It was scheduled to fly for the first time this year, but it might have been pushed to 2010. Hopefully we’ll get a look at the design at least. When I Google SU-47 I see nothing but articles that it’s cancelled? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/64 "2009-07-22T06:05:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The F-15 is not hopelessly dated, but it there is now considerable competition for it. Nothing currently touches the F-22 and nobody has anything on the drawing board that can keep one or two squadrons from establishing and maintaining complete air supremacy in a theater of war. Air supremacy is very useful for all of the ground troops, navies, helicopters and warthogs to dominating on land. > > There is no substitute for air supremacy. You might want to read that article that Mhendo linked to. The pilot in question was an F15 driver and his point was that in regards to exercises with the Indian airforce, they were able to surprise the USAF using equipment that the Eagle was supposed to have outclassed for the most part. While not a really good example for the eagle, it does show what a country can do with what they have. The Raptor is a dead program, while it can probably be restarted, i dont see the political urgency to do so. Politically the F35 is a more useful program for investing clout, multi national participation, decent performance and will do about what the Eagle currently does now in terms of air superiority. For all thats good about the Raptor, its main failing is that it came on stream too late. Declan ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/65 "2009-07-22T16:00:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.alternet.org/action/140906/tell\_your\_senators\_f-22's\_are\_a\_waste\_of\_our\_money/](http://www.alternet.org/action/140906/tell_your_senators_f-22%27s_are_a_waste_of_our_money/) > This article claims the military does not want it. Those that were for it, already have the amount they wanted. It also claims it is not good for air to surface combat. That is the type wars we are in now and will likely deal with in the future. We do not dogfight with Iraqi or Afghani jet fighters very often. I want to address this, because [Hatin’ on the Gonzo removed because it’s irrelevant and board rules prohibit it]. Well, anyhow, Air Superiority (AS) fighters cannot and do not effectively engage ground targets. This has been th case since WW2, and the difference between AS and Ground Attack (GA) has sharpened ever since. GA planes need to be slow, although this means they only go a few hundred mph. They need a metric crapload of every form of killing weaponry we can stick on the plane. They need to be so tough they can’t be brought down short of ramming headfirst into a mountain or eating a few missiles. They need… almost no advanced avionics whatsoever. They need to be easily repairable. Thus far, the best GA plane in the world is probably still the A-10 Thunderbolt (a.k.a. Warthog). AS planes, however, are meant for duels able to kill enemy planes before they can scream for help. They need mostly missiles, but modern AS planes have stepped well away from the “missile sledge” concept of Vietnam. They need advanced avionics, because what’s a million bucks in computers if it saves a 50 million dollar jet? Basically, it’s a tottally different role. For reasons I won’t get into, the Air Force has always had a veryhard time swallowing its pride and fielding GA planes. They HATE GS planes, because they do not want and never wanted to be backing up the army. They’d rather send a billion-dollar plane out, drop a bomb on a specific target, and go home. Unfortunately for them, that’s not really awesomely useful unless that bomb is a nuke, and we have some reasons for not doing that. Precision bombing does help, but ultimately you’re probably going to have to kill some guys, and GS birds do that in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/66 "2009-07-22T18:41:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When I Google SU-47 I see nothing but articles that it’s cancelled? The Su-47 was a technology demonstrator and as a testbed for various technologies, I don’t think it was meant to be deployed for anything else. The PAK-FA is their upcoming new fighter, but not overly much is known about it yet. Sukhoi’s director Mikhail Pogosyan has mentioned that it will be shown this year though. I’m very curious about how it will turn out :). ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/67 "2009-07-23T05:21:19Z")
Shame on you Americans! You have forgotten how to spend absurd ammounts of money in super cool planes ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/68 "2009-07-23T05:36:22Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Shame on you Americans! > You have forgotten how to spend absurd ammounts of money in super cool planes we bugeted for 187 Raptor’s, they’re not going away. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/69 "2009-07-23T14:59:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > we bugeted for 187 Raptor’s, they’re not going away. Yeah, but the amount of money budgeted for them is only insane, not absurd. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/70 "2009-07-23T15:01:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > we bugeted for 187 Raptor’s, they’re not going away. Well, unless it rains on them. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/71 "2009-07-23T15:24:34Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Nothing currently touches the F-22 and nobody has anything on the drawing board that can keep one or two squadrons from establishing and maintaining complete air supremacy in a theater of war. True enough if reliability and readiness goals can be met. I worry that under wartime pressures the already problematic maintenance and upkeep would degrade pretty fast, leading to a lot of F-22s being grounded or having to fly with ineffective antiradar coating and/or other uncorrected problems. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/72 "2009-07-23T15:39:34Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > GA planes need to be slow, although this means they only go a few hundred mph. They need a metric crapload of every form of killing weaponry we can stick on the plane. They need to be so tough they can’t be brought down short of ramming headfirst into a mountain or eating a few missiles. They need… almost no advanced avionics whatsoever. They need to be easily repairable. Let’s see… Slow (and good loiter time), instantaneous firepower of a light cruiser, rugged, easily repaired, basic avionics. You mean [something like this](http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=SKYRAIDER&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi)? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764/73 "2009-07-24T04:23:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > we bugeted for 187 Raptor’s, they’re not going away. OK, but I’ll be watching you… and whatever you do, DO NOT stop producing the A-10 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fighter-aircraft-f-22-raptor/502764.md?page=3)