# U.S. Fines Woman for Being 'Human Shield' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415 "2003-08-11T16:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/41 "2003-08-12T13:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*Vague? How is “Americans citizens cannot travel to Iraq” vague? That’s about as clear a law as I can think of. \*\* It is my belief that she is charged with breaking U.S. sanctions with the “direct or indirect commercial, financial or trade transactions with Iraq” (as the letter from the U.S. Department of the Treasury had claimed). She isn’t an American company doing bussiness with the Iraqi government. If this law can be invoked to anyone who merly enters Iraq, then that is a vague law. A vague law with a $10,000 fine and a possible 12 years in jail. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > \*\*Right on topic! Unfortunately not the topic of this thread. \*\* That quote was from **Rashak Mani** not me. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/42 "2003-08-12T13:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\* > **Captain,** you are indeed **Amazing**. Puh-leeze! This woman isn’t a billionaire accused of aiding an enemy or breaking an embargo. She’s just one person expressing her feelings in the most direct way she knows. Whatever money she spent there isn’t likely to aid anyone but an inkeeper. \*\* Right, but that’s the thing. The point of the embargo is to hurt that innkeeper. It’s to hurt every single Iraqi, or Cuban, or whomever, by denying them US funds until their government changes its policies or is overthrown. An embargo like this isn’t directed against the government of the country. It’s directed against the people of the country. I think embargoes are dumb, I think they’re pointless, and I think they’re cruel, but she did violate that law. ---
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/43 "2003-08-12T13:54:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > **Spies are not combatants either, but they are treasonous. If she was “protecting” an Iraqi refinery for the benefit of Saddam’s regime, then she was commiting treason.** If you are making such a claim about her, I would have to ask a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/44 "2003-08-12T14:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by swami \* > \*\*If you are making such a claim about her, I would have to ask a cite. \*\* Well, it was mentioned a few posts up, but the [url=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030811/ap\_on\_re\_us/human\_shield\_fine\_1]original article[/url says this: > [@](#): > > Shortly before the U.S. invasion in March, Fippinger was one of several dozen human shields scattered around a refinery in Baghdad. > “We are planning to stay here in the refinery if war breaks out,” Fippinger said at the time. “We are staying here because we think this war is unjust.” ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/45 "2003-08-12T14:22:52Z")
Darnit, I **meant** to hit preview… Oh well, the link is above, and I quoted the relevant text 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/46 "2003-08-12T14:30:18Z")
By her own admission, she was at the refinery and planned to stay there. Her goal as a human shield was to stop US attacks at the refinery. Whether she fires a shot or not, she intends to aid the enemy. The fuel from that refinery helps to run Saddam’s army, if she prevents an attack, that fuel will keep tanks, armored vehicles, etc. running and attacking our forces. If just one extra tanker truck gets out because we had to modify our attack plan that’s going to fuel somebody’s vehicle, and we’ll have a harder time with the war. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/47 "2003-08-12T15:03:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **Why should his citizenship have _any_ bearing on his contributions to the various debates here?..** Because, following the example of our glorious and radiant leader (may he live forever and never suffer from erectile dysfunction), we have unilaterally decided that the only opinions on the planet that matter are those of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/48 "2003-08-12T16:35:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by swami_ > That quote was from Rashak Mani not me Yes, you’re right. I’m sorry. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Binarydrone_ > Because, following the example of our glorious and radiant leader (may he live forever and never suffer from erectile dysfunction), we have unilaterally decided that the only opinions on the planet that matter are those of Americans. My first though was that you were referring to either Cecil or Bob – but, given the last part of the sentence, I guess it’s your illustrious president after all.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/49 "2003-08-12T16:41:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Spies are not combatants either, but they are treasonous. If she was “protecting” an Iraqi refinery for the benefit of Saddam’s regime, then she was commiting treason. \*\* One needs a declaration of war for there to be a charge of treason. What she was doing may have violated some law, but it was treason as set down in the Constitution. This is also why the “American Taliban” was not charged with treason. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/50 "2003-08-12T16:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by swami \* > \*\*It is my belief that she is charged with breaking U.S. sanctions with the “direct or indirect commercial, financial or trade transactions with Iraq” (as the letter from the U.S. Department of the Treasury had claimed). She isn’t an American company doing bussiness with the Iraqi government. If this law can be invoked to anyone who merly enters Iraq, then that is a vague law. A vague law with a $10,000 fine and a possible 12 years in jail. \*\* It is not vague. When you go to McDonald’s and purchase a Big Mac, that is a commercial transaction. If you buy a burger in Iraq, you are engaged in an indirect commercial transaction with that country (your direct transaction with the merchant indirectly funds the country through taxes). There isn’t a distinction between a company and an individual. Nor can there be – otherwise (assuming for the moment that the goal of the policy is to stop transactions by business entities), companies would just engage in transactions using an individual as an intermediary. The law is clear, and ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse. You can certainly suggest that it’s a silly law, or that the penalties are too steep – in which case, write your Congressman. But don’t make the absurd suggestion that this law is particularly vague. I also note that **Monty** ’s link is a recent State Department position on travel to Iraq that supercedes earlier pronouncements. It’s thus out of date. Does anyone know what the prewar travel bulletin stated? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/51 "2003-08-12T17:04:49Z")
Peaceful protest is NOT aiding the enemy. Where the fuck is your precious American freedom of speech that you all bleat about at such impassioned length? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/52 "2003-08-12T17:25:43Z")
Peaceful protest is also NOT standing in front of a strategic military target daring your own soldiers to shoot through you to destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/53 "2003-08-12T18:02:43Z")
I would just like someone to explain why this woman. who knowingly broke the law, shouldn’t be punnished according to the law? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/54 "2003-08-12T18:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > The Ryan, as usual you don’t get it. > > The only effective form of protest ever against this administation so far were the silent protesters at the front of the US Embassy in Liberia, shot dead in a hail of crossfire hitting the refugee camp. That got te US to put at least a few soldiers there. > > Do we have to all die to effectively protest against this administration? By the way some of you are acting, yes. And that is most repugnant. I don’t think **you** get it. This is GD, not IMHO. The proper procedure is to indicate a statement of mine that you believe is in error, and present an argument as to why that is the case, not simply follow an insult with a random statement of opinion, followed in turn by paranoid left wing rantings. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/55 "2003-08-12T19:34:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*I would just like someone to explain why this woman. who knowingly broke the law, shouldn’t be punnished according to the law? \*\* I think that I can help here. The issue here, as far as I can see, is not an issue of _law_ so much as it is an issue of _morality_ (I will assume that I don’t need to go in to how the two, while having many areas that overlap, are different). Basically, there are a couple of things at play here. First is that this sort of action seems a little like gloating on the behalf of the government. They got what they wanted (a war not supported by the international community, not supported by a sizable minority in the USA and one that increasingly seems like (at best) was gotten in to based on bad information or (at worst) was gotten in to based on lies). There really is no need to grind it in the face of the people that did and continue to protest the war. Given that the folks that do not favor this current administration (and let us never forget that either slightly over or under half of us did not vote for Bush) tend to look at the motives involved with some suspicion, it is hard to not see actions like this as a way of stifling descent. When they decide to take action like this, it smells like a warning for those of us who would petition the government for redress of our grievances and failing that engage in civil disobedience. And please understand that I am not saying that it is not _lawful_ for the government to take this action, but I can see how it could be viewed as _immoral_. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/56 "2003-08-12T20:09:27Z")
I didn’t vote for Bush and didn’t support the action in Iraq. But if someone knowingly broke the law, they have to expect to be penalized under the law. To break a rule, then whine and complain about the consequences _which you knew about before you broke the rule_, seems very childish. Gandhi, the patron saint of such resistance, never shirked from going to jail when he broke an unjust law. “Gandhi steadfastly avoided violence toward his opponents. He did not avoid violence toward himself or his followers.” This lady is doing the opposite. _I want to be able to break the law in protest, but I don’t want any thing bad to happen to me as a result._ ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/57 "2003-08-12T20:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*I didn’t vote for Bush and didn’t support the action in Iraq. > > But if someone knowingly broke the law, they have to expect to be penalized under the law. > > To break a rule, then whine and complain about the consequences _which you knew about before you broke the rule_, seems very childish. > > Gandhi, the patron saint of such resistance, never shirked from going to jail when he broke an unjust law. “Gandhi steadfastly avoided violence toward his opponents. He did not avoid violence toward himself or his followers.” > > This lady is doing the opposite. _I want to be able to break the law in protest, but I don’t want any thing bad to happen to me as a result._ \*\* Huh, I am not reading the linked article from the OP that way. This quote: > [@](#): > > In her response to the charges, she wrote the government that "if it comes to fines or imprisonment, “please be aware that I will not contribute money to the United States government to continue the buildup of its arsenal of weapons.” Since she won’t pay, she said, “perhaps the alternative should be considered.” seems to say that she refuses to pay, and if they want to throw her in jail to go ahead (although I will admit that I could be reading it wrong as I find it a little hard to parse). In any event, assuming that my interpretation is correct, she does seem to be willing to accept the consequences for her action. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/58 "2003-08-12T20:47:53Z")
She was there to protect a refinery - perhaps she was secretly a member of the Bush camp, and they needed an excuse NOT to attack the refinery. “Oh! There are Human Shields! Better go blow up a water works instead of this oil refinery, the money from which will help rebuild the water works!” (Tongue - kind of - in cheek) ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/59 "2003-08-12T21:28:57Z")
**Binarydrone** If that is indeed the case I have a lot more respect for this lady. So, what is everyone bitching about, then? She is willing to be responsible for her actions, but people think she shouldn’t be? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415/60 "2003-08-12T21:34:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*Peaceful protest is NOT aiding the enemy. > > Where the fuck is your precious American freedom of speech that you all bleat about at such impassioned length? \*\* Peaceful protest is one thing, but giving aid and comfort to the enemy is another. If the human shields had protested here in the US, the law couldn’t touch them. But acting against US forces in the field is treason, no matter how fucked up the war turned out to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-fines-woman-for-being-human-shield/194415.md?page=4)