# U.S. Government: "U.S. Citizen 'Enemy Combatants' Have No Legal Rights. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153 "2002-06-20T22:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/41 "2002-06-21T20:44:55Z")
_Bad **erl**!_ ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/42 "2002-06-21T21:10:53Z")
😛 ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/43 "2002-06-21T22:14:56Z")
I am new at this site. And very astonished! **“held indefinitely without a hearing and without charges”** “I like that!” says Adolf and Josef from their graves. **“Our legal system is designed to apprehend and prosecute people AFTER they commit a crime.” “It shouldn’t matter if you’re accused of killing every single person on earth. If you’re a U.S. citizen, you should get a trial, period.”** (I would like to have the words “U.S. citizen” written “human”). Here I hear Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and others that I admire. **"Frankly I don’t see what the problem is. As an enemy combatant, they could/should be shot on the spot.”** I see with my minds eye how Adolf and Josef is drinking to this. **“I have it on good authority that msmith537 is planning to detonate a nuclear bomb in downtown Chicago. Since I have now informed our Infallible Leaders of this fact, he has been arrested and is now to be imprisoned indefinitely.”** This is what happened in Adolf-country and was made to a system in Josef-country. **Is this what You wish???** I have never believed that “the Adolf-thing” nor “the Josef-thing” could happened ever again among civilized people. I am sorry to say: Now I believe and it scares the shit out of me. I am very glad I found Your site and I am very sad I find a site like this. Go figure
 Anyhow, now You have to endure even me. Oh, whatta bunch we will make. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/44 "2002-06-21T22:42:21Z")
sailor: You continue to ignore the Convention. Said Convention stipulates who constitutes a lawful armed force and who constitutes unlawful combatants. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2002, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/45 "2002-06-21T23:34:25Z")
**Monty** : You continue to ignore the Constitution. Said Constitution says that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. Please address why the heck you think the Geneva Convention overrides the United States Constitution. And oh yeah, the GC says fuck-all nothing about illegal enemy combatants or anything similar to your purported category. Just so you’re clear. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/46 "2002-06-22T00:07:10Z")
minty: You can’t be serious! I’m not about to ignore the Constitution. The way I understand it, GITMO’s not part of the United States–it’s a chunk of land in Cuba. The US Constitution doesn’t apply to the prisoners held there because they’re not in the United States. IIRC, the Geneva Convention actually does address classes of combatants. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/47 "2002-06-22T00:23:32Z")
And evidently, I do recall correctly: From [Geneva Convention III](http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/1595a804df7efd6bc125641400640d89/6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68?OpenDocument): > [@](#): > > Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: > (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. > > (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[ > (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; > (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; > © that of carrying arms openly; > (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. > > (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. > > (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model. > > (5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. > > (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. Also from the same source: > [@](#): > > Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires. Since the detainees in GITMO did not have any enjoyment of the US Constitution prior to their capture and they are not on US soil, they are not being denied anything. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/48 "2002-06-22T00:41:47Z")
Just to keep this on track, the issue in the OP isn’t what rights “illegal combatants” should have. The issue is whether the U.S. government can cancel a U.S. citizen’s constitutional rights with the stroke of a pen simply by declaring someone to be an “illegal combatant.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/49 "2002-06-22T00:47:43Z")
**Tedster** , apparently you’ve never heard of the phrase, “Innocent until proven guilty.” No, terrorists do not deserve a thing. However, until we know beyond a reasonable doubt that they are terrorists, they have rights. Don’t like it? Too bad. You could always move to say, Saudi Arabia. I think there the laws are more to your liking. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/50 "2002-06-22T02:01:45Z")
Monty, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with Gitmo. These are American citizens who are detained, without even a pretense of due process, in America. You may also recall that I argued quite vigorously with certain posters who thought the Geneva Convention applied to the detainees in Guantanamo. It does not. The threads aren’t here any longer, but they’re archived on boardreader.com–just do a search on my name and Geneva Convention, and they’ll pop right up. Finally, your citation to Article 4 fails to address the issue of illegal enemy combatants, or whatever you want to call them. Article 4 simply establishes the categories of persons who are entitled to prisoner of war status. Article 4 and the rest of the Convetion are completely silent on the treatment of people who are not prisoners of war. Silence in the Geneva Convention does not override all other applicable law–most especially not the Constitution of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/51 "2002-06-22T02:29:58Z")
minty: Granted that a US citizen continues to have the rights guaranteed by the Constitution; however, the prisoners of war appellation only applies to those who are prisoners of war. The GC specifies who those are, and by the simple process of elimination, those who don’t qualify aren’t. My contention isn’t with you, it’s with sailor’s ludicrous comments about the US government above. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/52 "2002-06-22T02:30:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*
Jose Padilla spent his entire life in the U.S. but converted to Islam while in prison
 \*\* Why the “but”? It’s funny how these unconscious prejudices come out. I’m not calling you a racist, so please don’t get all bent out of shape. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/53 "2002-06-22T02:47:12Z")
Wow, they apologized for the internment in the States, too? I didn’t know that. I just knew the Prime Minister Mulroney publicly admitted that interning all us Japanese people (including small children) was a Bad Thing To Do. The money helped, too, although there wasn’t that much of it spread around. My dad was interned. We Nissei (Japanese-Canadians) as still a little bitter about the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/54 "2002-06-22T02:50:46Z")
Oh, yeah, ‘guilty until proven innocent’ is a great way to go. After all, my grandfather was seriously considering rowing to Japan in his fishing boat to give important top secret information to the Japanese. And so were all the little kids who’d been born in Canada. With kamikaze death packs, as mentioned before. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/55 "2002-06-22T02:54:07Z")
I don’t think sailor was asserting these guys were p.o.w.'s, but maybe I’m misreading his post. Rather, I think his complaint is the unilateral decision of the administration to classify U.S. citizens as beyond the reach of law. That decision is reprehensible and indefensible, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Satyagrahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Satyagrahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satyagrahi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/56 "2002-06-22T02:55:05Z")
Just for fun, let’s toss in a couple historical examples, keeping in mind Twain’s comment, “History doesn’t repeat itself
but it _does_ rhyme.” First: In 1861, soon after taking office as President, Lincoln, arbitraily and unConstitutionally, suspended _habeus corpus_. He did this for what he considered a very good reason: He had arrested by the military most of the members of the Maryland state legislature in order to keep them from voting for Maryland to secede from the Union, thus isolating the national capitol. These legislators were held in prison, without being charged and without being brought to any kind of trial, in spite of protests from the Supreme Court, until Lincoln felt it was safe to let them go, some months later. Yes, Lincoln defied the law and, yes, Lincoln took action to “erode our rights,” just as Bush and Ashcroft have been accused of doing in this thread. Lincoln, a man of solid integrity and moral to the core, dropped the extraordinary measures as soon as possible and returned to the strict rule of law. Second: In 403 BCE, shortly after its defeat in the Peloponnesian War, Athens was ruled, under the name of democracy, by a sordid oligarchy commonly called the “Thirty Tyrants,” led by an individual named Kritias. The Thirty Tyrants ruled arbitrarily and with much personal corruption; accusing, murdering, and then seizing the property of non-citizen residents. Athenian citizens did not like what was going on but felt safe enough because of Kritas’ pledge that no citizen would be punished until legally tried and convicted. After a year or so of this, one of the Thirty, a moderate named Theramenes, grew enough disenchanted with this government that he ventured to criticize Kritias in a public debate. In response, Kritias held up for all to see the Roll of Citizens and calmly drew a line through Theramenes’ name. Later that day, the ex-citizen Theramenes was arrested and quietly executed. This, and other murders, alienated enough of the citizenry to bring on a bloody civil war which decimated the population. Kritias and his followers died
but so did many good men. Athens then faded into political degeneracy and insignificance. So
which do Bush and Ashcroft more closely resemble? Lincoln
or Kritias? And, based on that, what lies ahead for the United States? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/57 "2002-06-22T02:57:45Z")
Oh and **chula**? Lighten up a bit there. It _is_ surprising that a Puerto Rican street thug from Chicago would convert to a militant form of Islam. Truth Seeker’s comment is perfectly appropriate, just as if a guy from Riyadh “but” converted to Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/58 "2002-06-22T03:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Oh and **chula**? Lighten up a bit there. It _is_ surprising that a Puerto Rican street thug from Chicago would convert to a militant form of Islam. Truth Seeker’s comment is perfectly appropriate, just as if a guy from Riyadh “but” converted to Catholicism. \*\* First of all, I was clearly not getting worked up about it. Second, that’s a completely inaccurate analogy because Saudi Arabia requires that all citizens be Muslim, and the United States is supposedly a free society that embraces a diversity of religions. Third, it’s not unusual at all for someone to convert to Islam in prison. Ever heard of Malcolm X? [This website](http://www.islamamerica.org/history.html) estimates that 35,000 prisoners a year covert, and a total of 135,000 Americans covert each year. [The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/national/22CONV.html) cites the figure at 25,000 per year, noting the there has been a drastic increase since 9/11. Apologies for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/59 "2002-06-22T03:39:25Z")
If you don’t care, don’t accuse another poster of “unconscious prejudice” on such flimsy evidence. It’s a cheap shot, and not redeemed by simultaneously saying you’re not accusing anyone of racism . . . as if there’s any other way to interpret “unconscious prejudice.” ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153/60 "2002-06-22T04:20:26Z")
“Prejudice” is not a synonym of “racism.” To be prejudiced is to misjudge/ to hold preconceived ideas. For whatever reason, the poster considers “American” and “converted Muslim” to normally be separate categories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-government-u-s-citizen-enemy-combatants-have-no-legal-rights/115153.md?page=4)